What levels should the D&D Pantheon Gods be?

Upper_Krust · Mar 14, 2009

Hey Shemeska mate!

Been a while, hope you have been keeping well since we last chatted?

Shemeska said:
If the system ends at level 30 for mortals, then I could see gods/archfiends/etc at around level 35-40, but only for their avatars.

Certain Archfiends (Orcus) and Gods (Vecna) have already been detailed in 4th Edition.

I would not give actual stats to their true forms since it seems (to me) silly to try to pin down a concept or a base idea of the universe made flesh into a stat block.

Unless of course they are not 'concepts' but rather supernatural intelligences drawing power from those concepts. For instance a God of Fire doesn't necessarily control Primordials of Fire (such as Imix or Surtur) and vice versa, so there is no reason to assume that a God of Fire is 'fire' itself.

Likewise your idea doesn't allow for the possibility of two Gods of Fire coexisting simultaneously.

That's not the answer for a very gamist approach to D&D I suppose, and it's very much at odds with your view on the interaction between PCs and gods Krust, but that's the one that I would go with given my style of running.

I know.

Mortals can (and do) fight such beings in my game, but there's no statblock for the deity when it happens, and there's never anything so straightforward as a combat between god and PCs (except for PCs versus avatars which has happened).

I prefer the 'all power is relative' route...as you know.

Klaus · Mar 14, 2009

In mythology gods were constantly going against mortals. And never forget that fact that, at level 30, a PC can very well be a demigod himself. I think a group of 5 demigods teaming up against a full god is entirely possible.

I'd put Bahamut and Tiamat of equal footing, since they're halves of Io, and place Melora in the highest rank. She is "Mother Nature", so to speak, so I'd say she should be on equal footing with the gods of War, Death, Magic and other basic forces. I'd even peg down Moradin and elevate Ioun.

Upper_Krust · Mar 14, 2009

Hey S'mon!

S'mon said:
Sounds good to me - maybe cap them out at level 40 solo and work down from there. Very like 1e D&DG capping at 400 hp and working down.

Oddly enough I have been putting together a new method of determining deities by worshippers and then converting Earth's Pantheons to the new format based on the time during Earth's history when they were at their strongest.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/eterni...ations-world-cultures-throughout-history.html

So for instance the Greek Gods would be weaker than the Roman Gods (or Roman incarnations of the same Gods).

Using this new system, Odin works out as a Level 35 Solo opponent (the same as Vecna and Tiamat in 4E), while Thor would work out as a Level 31 Solo opponent (less than Graz'zt in 4E who is Level 32).

The reason for this being of course that the D&D World has a single Pantheon whereas Earth has multiple Pantheons. So less worshippers to go around more deities.

Of course in your campaign (where deities are potentially worshipped on multiple planets) Odin would probably be about Level 41 or so.

As for capping deities at Level 40, I actually cap Greater Gods at Level 41 - though that Level would require a single Pantheon (with a single figurehead) having 10+ billion worshippers.

S'mon · Mar 14, 2009

Upper_Krust said:
So for instance the Greek Gods would be weaker than the Roman Gods (or Roman incarnations of the same Gods).

Hmmm. Two points:

1. The Pantheonic Roman gods like Jupiter were not really a big deal by and large, just copies of the Greek gods. I can see Mithras being more powerful, though.

2. More importantly, what happens when civilisations and cultures come into conflict? Take the Persian wars with Greece that I think we studied in Classical history back in BRA. If # worshippers is the sole determinant of power, then the Persian gods with many tens of millions will easily kick the butts of the Greek gods with only a couple million. That doesn't seem right to me. At any rate, Persian gods fighting on the plain of Marathon (as described by Herodotus, who supposedly saw one kill the man next to him!) should not be more powerful than Greek gods fighting on the Greek side.

These can be treated in-game as 'avatars' of course, but that is an Indian concept, you don't see it in Aryan (or Greek, or Norse) myth AFAIK. The Greek approach was more that gods were beatable, as Diomedes beat Ares at Troy, but being immortal were hard-to-impossible to permanently kill.

Upper_Krust · Mar 14, 2009

Howdy Klaus!

Klaus said:
In mythology gods were constantly going against mortals. And never forget that fact that, at level 30, a PC can very well be a demigod himself. I think a group of 5 demigods teaming up against a full god is entirely possible.

Absolutely.

I'd put Bahamut and Tiamat of equal footing, since they're halves of Io,

My reasoning behind this was to represent Bahamut's singular head against Tiamat's five. I am not sure how you could make a Level 35 Bahamut the equal of Tiamat without some ridiculously arbitrary powers and abilities. Both Tiamat and Vecna are the same level but it seems to me as if Tiamat is dealing on average around three times Vecna's damage.

Bahamut in 1st Edition had 168 hp while Tiamat had 128 hp but a higher damage output. So there is a precedent for this.

and place Melora in the highest rank. She is "Mother Nature", so to speak, so I'd say she should be on equal footing with the gods of War, Death, Magic and other basic forces.

Possibly. At the very least I would swop Avandra and Melora, making Melora 36th and Avandra 35th instead of the other way around.

I'd even peg down Moradin

Well didn't an official source by WotC peg Moradin at 37th?

Also would you have Moradin lower than Gruumsh and Corellon? Based on the new warring mythology of the core Pantheon it appears Gruumsh and Bane are also roughly equals (although naturally that doesn't have to mean the exact same level - but its a pretty good marker I think).

and elevate Ioun.

Isn't Corellon meant to be the defacto God of Magic though?

Arawn76 · Mar 14, 2009

Upper_Krust · Mar 14, 2009

S'mon said:
Hmmm. Two points:

1. The Pantheonic Roman gods like Jupiter were not really a big deal by and large, just copies of the Greek gods. I can see Mithras being more powerful, though.

2. More importantly, what happens when civilisations and cultures come into conflict?

A defeated culture would be subsumed by the victor, likewise the defeated Pantheon (assuming the fight took place simultaneously on the Earthly and Astral planes) would become a Slave Pantheon with its members reduced in power (possibly to Avatar status - still fleshing out the exat details).

Take the Persian wars with Greece that I think we studied in Classical history back in BRA. If # worshippers is the sole determinant of power, then the Persian gods with many tens of millions will easily kick the butts of the Greek gods with only a couple million. That doesn't seem right to me.

The difference between the 30+ million (45 was the nearest I could glean rounded down to 30 as the start of this thread notes) of the Persian Gods and the 1+ million (2.5 million rounded down to 1) of the Greeks only translates into a 2 Level difference (on average) between the deities. Not insurmountable by any means - especially if you have home (realm) advantage.

At any rate, Persian gods fighting on the plain of Marathon (as described by Herodotus, who supposedly saw one kill the man next to him!) should not be more powerful than Greek gods fighting on the Greek side.

Its possible that that there were numerically more Persian Gods but that individually they were only on a par or weaker than their greek counterparts.

These can be treated in-game as 'avatars' of course, but that is an Indian concept, you don't see it in Aryan (or Greek, or Norse) myth AFAIK. The Greek approach was more that gods were beatable, as Diomedes beat Ares at Troy, but being immortal were hard-to-impossible to permanently kill.

Looking at this new worshipper conversion system Ares probably would have been about a Level 27 Solo encounter (circa his fight with Diomedes), so its possible that a Level 30 mortal PC could have bested him.

S'mon · Mar 14, 2009

Upper_Krust said:
The difference between the 30+ million (45 was the nearest I could glean rounded down to 30 as the start of this thread notes) of the Persian Gods and the 1+ million (2.5 million rounded down to 1) of the Greeks only translates into a 2 Level difference (on average) between the deities. Not insurmountable by any means - especially if you have home (realm) advantage.

OK, I'm not that familiar with the 4e power gradient. One thing I know is that NPC stats in 4e are only there for interaction with PCs; so calling a deity a Level 35 Solo means "We expect him to fight alone with level 30 PCs as a difficult encounter", yes?

I'm currently tending to the Moorcock approach of having deities' stats/power vary wildly depending on the setting/world in which they appear, which would argue against any single "real" set of stats as encapsulating that deity. Which fits 4e's postmodernist approach very well, I think. So maybe "What level is Bane?" is the wrong question - his level will vary depending on the world/setting in which he appears. This gives more flexibility to having say Kord be level 35 & killable on Greyhawk but level 40+ and unkillable in a homebrew, etc. Kord's death on Greyhawk will not affect homebrew-Kord, except that homebrew-Kord might be dimly aware of events in other worlds and times. Again, this is taken from Moorcock.

Closely linked clusters of planes that form a single setting may have just one Kord, who draws power from worshippers on all of them, but faraway world will have their own Kord. This certainly helps maintain continuity when minor demon lord Lolth is killed on Oerth without having the great goddess Lloth vanish from Toril.

Upper_Krust · Mar 14, 2009

S'mon said:
OK, I'm not that familiar with the 4e power gradient. One thing I know is that NPC stats in 4e are only there for interaction with PCs; so calling a deity a Level 35 Solo means "We expect him to fight alone with level 30 PCs as a difficult encounter", yes?

An Elite monster is equal to 2 monsters of the same level, a Solo monster is equal to 5 monsters of the same level (and a Minion is 1/4).

Five levels higher is roughly the maximum threshold you would use against a group (five levels lower is probably the minimum).

I'm currently tending to the Moorcock approach of having deities' stats/power vary wildly depending on the setting/world in which they appear, which would argue against any single "real" set of stats as encapsulating that deity. Which fits 4e's postmodernist approach very well, I think.

Agreed. Although you could say that a deity would be maximum level on the Astral Plane (or wherever their home plane is) but when encountered on a particular world the level of their faith on that world might determine their power when encountered there - sort of like Avatars in a roundabout way.

So maybe "What level is Bane?" is the wrong question - his level will vary depending on the world/setting in which he appears. This gives more flexibility to having say Kord be level 35 & killable on Greyhawk but level 40+ and unkillable in a homebrew, etc. Kord's death on Greyhawk will not affect homebrew-Kord, except that homebrew-Kord might be dimly aware of events in other worlds and times. Again, this is taken from Moorcock.

Closely linked clusters of planes that form a single setting may have just one Kord, who draws power from worshippers on all of them, but faraway world will have their own Kord. This certainly helps maintain continuity when minor demon lord Lolth is killed on Oerth without having the great goddess Lloth vanish from Toril.

Thats one possibility.

Klaus · Mar 14, 2009

Upper_Krust said:
Howdy Klaus!

Absolutely.

My reasoning behind this was to represent Bahamut's singular head against Tiamat's five. I am not sure how you could make a Level 35 Bahamut the equal of Tiamat without some ridiculously arbitrary powers and abilities. Both Tiamat and Vecna are the same level but it seems to me as if Tiamat is dealing on average around three times Vecna's damage.

Bahamut in 1st Edition had 168 hp while Tiamat had 128 hp but a higher damage output. So there is a precedent for this.

Possibly. At the very least I would swop Avandra and Melora, making Melora 36th and Avandra 35th instead of the other way around.

Well didn't an official source by WotC peg Moradin at 37th?

Also would you have Moradin lower than Gruumsh and Corellon? Based on the new warring mythology of the core Pantheon it appears Gruumsh and Bane are also roughly equals (although naturally that doesn't have to mean the exact same level - but its a pretty good marker I think).

Isn't Corellon meant to be the defacto God of Magic though?

Re: Bahamut and Tiamat: well, D&D has a history of making good creatures more powerful than their evil counterparts. But I see your point.

You're right that Corellon is the god of Magic. Ioun is the goddess of study (could say wizardry) and of prophecy (whereas the Raven Queen is the goddess of fate).

Moradin can stay up there, he is also the god of creation, hearth and family.