What levels should the D&D Pantheon Gods be?

Shemeska · Mar 14, 2009

Upper_Krust said:
Unless of course they are not 'concepts' but rather supernatural intelligences drawing power from those concepts. For instance a God of Fire doesn't necessarily control Primordials of Fire (such as Imix or Surtur) and vice versa, so there is no reason to assume that a God of Fire is 'fire' itself.

Again, that boils down to how precisely you define what a god or similar being actually is on a basic level in your own campaign setting.

Likewise your idea doesn't allow for the possibility of two Gods of Fire coexisting simultaneously.

It hasn't stopped me before. Imix and Kossuth just to pick a pair, both gain worship as 'gods of fire', and both openly claim to be just that. Assuming for the moment that they both are indeed gods of fire, and physically embody that concept -indeed -are- that concept itself- you might be right, except despite what they might claim, or their worshippers' believe, they're each embodying different aspects of the same concept.

Secondly, even if they embody the exact same concept like two deities created from the gestalt worship and belief of mortals on two different worlds on the material plane, I still see little reason to not allow one of them to exist, or have them be the same thing like you would imply. They might be the same concept, but the same concept as envisioned and viewed through the lens of devotion of two perhaps very different cultures.

Another example: demons being a physical manifestation of malignant chaos hasn't stopped the Abyss from being populated with an uncountable or infinite number of them. There's no limitation imposed at all like what you mentioned. It's a very different style than your own, but I've never come across anything restrictive or limiting (rather quite the opposite).

Primal · Mar 14, 2009

SKyOdin said:
I wouldn't call killing gods something that is inherently gamist. I am big fan of ancient mythology, and I tend to model my campaigns and campaign settings on mythology. As a result, while gods are incredibly powerful, they are like really, really, powerful mortals. They can be defeated or even killed by powerful mortals, demons, or spirits. As such, having gods at a power level where they can be actually killed by the PCs is desirable for me on the basis of flavor and narrative. Besides, if you can't kill gods, how do you have the PCs fight against god-killing abominations of the likes of the Midgard Serpent and Fenrir? I like the idea of the PCs taking a crack at one of those. Of course, I think Thor is an appropriate character to model an epic level PC on.

As for the opening post, I have always hated the idea that gods draw power from their worshipers. To answer the main question though, I think gods are appropriate threats for characters in the upper end of the epic tier, and should primarily be elite or solo creatures.

Well, speaking of Midgard Serpent and Fenrir... I wouldn't. Seriously. I know that fighting gods and Elder Evils in their "True Forms" became fashionable once again in 3E, but even in the most Epic campaigns in my group, fighting deities (and seeing deities as "high-level mortals") has always felt alien and, well, silly. Avatars are another matter, so I agree with Shemeska on this one.

The rules for deities just didn't work in 3E, and I don't think 4E managed a better job in that regard. Of course, your opinion may vary.

arscott · Mar 14, 2009

In the spirit of form follows function, I feel like these guys should be statted as appropriate to where we might see them used in a game.

WotC's choice of Level 35 Solo for Tiamat and Vecna are aimed at making these gods suitable for the last encounter of a campaign, which seems like a reasonable place.

Some gods should be less powerful than that, simply because we expect to fight them along with suitable minions. It's hard to imagine facing Bane or Ioun in a five-on-one combat. Either Lower the levels on such gods or make them elites to free up room in the XP budget for their allies.

Other Gods don't seem especially suited for that Ultimate encounter. Torog and Bahamut, for example, are guardians of a sort, so I'd expect to fight them earlier in the epic tier, and then spend the rest of the campaign dealing with whatever it was that they were guarding in the first place. So perhaps level 30 solo (with the aim of fighting them at 26th level)

Jhaelen · Mar 15, 2009

What levels should the D&D Pantheon Gods be?

Ah, that's an easy question

Infinite, of course - all of them!

TarionzCousin · Mar 15, 2009

In my campaign all of the gods are about 15th level, but they each have 100,000 times as many hit points as other 15th level monsters do. The PC's always get bored trying to kill them.

Upper_Krust · Mar 15, 2009

Hello again Shemeska!

Shemeska said:
Again, that boils down to how precisely you define what a god or similar being actually is on a basic level in your own campaign setting.

Absolutely.

It hasn't stopped me before. Imix and Kossuth just to pick a pair, both gain worship as 'gods of fire', and both openly claim to be just that. Assuming for the moment that they both are indeed gods of fire, and physically embody that concept -indeed -are- that concept itself- you might be right, except despite what they might claim, or their worshippers' believe, they're each embodying different aspects of the same concept.

So neither is (the ultimate expression of) 'Fire' itself. So you are not battling against a 'concept' anymore than you would be facing a fire elemental.

Secondly, even if they embody the exact same concept like two deities created from the gestalt worship and belief of mortals on two different worlds on the material plane, I still see little reason to not allow one of them to exist, or have them be the same thing like you would imply. They might be the same concept, but the same concept as envisioned and viewed through the lens of devotion of two perhaps very different cultures.

But in universal terms neither would be 'fire' itself, thats the point I am making. You seem against the idea of slaying a god because you can't kill 'fire' (for example). But there may well be a dozen such beings linked to fire that are gods of fire, but not fire itself. So I am just wondering where and when it is you flip the switch to turn off the stats?

Another example: demons being a physical manifestation of malignant chaos hasn't stopped the Abyss from being populated with an uncountable or infinite number of them.

Chaos does have a tendency to diversify.

However I am not sure what you are suggesting here, I doubt its that Demons should have no stats because they are the physical manifestations of malignant chaos.

There's no limitation imposed at all like what you mentioned. It's a very different style than your own, but I've never come across anything restrictive or limiting (rather quite the opposite).

Did you know that 4E Gods have an accompanying sidebar that basically amounts to a handful of suggested stipulations PCs have to meet to even have a chance of (properly) defeating them?

Sounds a bit like what you suggested in your first post...albeit with stats after the PCs meet one or more stipulations.

Upper_Krust · Mar 15, 2009

Howdy Jhaelen!

Jhaelen said:
What levels should the D&D Pantheon Gods be?

Ah, that's an easy question

Infinite, of course - all of them!

Wizards (of the Coast) and I disagree with you.

Wombat · Mar 15, 2009

I merely suggest that you refer to an earlier WotC publication -- The Primal Order

S'mon · Mar 15, 2009

I guess weaker demigods should typically be something like 30th level elites?

BTW I can imagine in certain campaigns a god might be encountered at the Heroic tier as a 10th level Solo.