What levels should the D&D Pantheon Gods be?

Upper_Krust · Mar 16, 2009

Hey S'mon!

S'mon said:
I guess weaker demigods should typically be something like 30th level elites?

As far as I can tell the whole thing is flexible along the following lines:

Solo 30 = Elite 35 (+5) = Standard 39 (+9) = Minion 47 (+17)

As for a rough hierarchy I'd suggest:

(Hero-deity = 17-21 Solo)
Quasi-deity = 22-26 Solo
Demi-deity = 27-31 Solo
Lesser Deity = 32-36 Solo
Greater Deity = 37-41 Solo

I'm thinking Avatars should maybe be ten levels lower, with Aspects 20 levels lower (adjusted for Elite/Standard/Minion as appropriate). Although the official rules don't abide by this (or any such method)*.

So for instance You could face Vecna (Solo 35) his Avatar(s) (Standard 34) and his Aspect(s) (Minion 32) in the same encounter.

*I think in the Monster Manual Orcus is Solo 33, but his Aspect is Elite 24, while in the Draconomicon, Tiamat (Solo 35) has a Solo 17 Aspect.

S'mon said:
BTW I can imagine in certain campaigns a god might be encountered at the Heroic tier as a 10th level Solo.

You could certainly have an Aspect of a Deity that was a 10th-level Solo encounter. Its a very flexible system.

Jack99 · Mar 16, 2009

S'mon said:
I guess weaker demigods should typically be something like 30th level elites?

I still think even demigods should keep the solo template. Aspects on the other hand are fine as elite (as they are).

CapnZapp · Mar 16, 2009

What levels should the D&D Pantheon Gods be?

At least 10 levels higher than your player characters.

CapnZapp · Mar 16, 2009

Shemeska said:
If the system ends at level 30 for mortals, then I could see gods/archfiends/etc at around level 35-40, but only for their avatars.

This.

I would never consider the published stats to be that of the true god itself.

That might work for campaign settings such as Forgotten Realms, where gods and epic adventurers routinely (well...) kill off troublesome gods and take their stuff (their portfolios).

The farthest I would be willing to stretch it is that while you can't fight a God, you can work to diminish its influence. Basically, reduce the faith and worship directed at it.

And it is here I can see a place for the Avatars (the level 35 monsters that WotC have statted up). Instead of spending decades converting the masses away from worshipping a certain god, it can be a more appropriate action for epic heroes to fight and defeat the god's avatar to acomplish the same thing.

The god won't be destroyed, but the defeat of the avatar could mean a serious blow to the faith of the populace, which pretty much amounts to the same thing.

Of course, if or when WotC decide to publish an Immortals Tier Handbook (player character options for levels 31-40), they need to retcon the existing stats as not-quite-the-god anyway...

Klaus · Mar 16, 2009

Shemeska said:
If the system ends at level 30 for mortals,

Actually, by the time they reach 30th level, the PCs are very likely to be immortals themselves. You can even start a campaign after that where the new PCs worship the old PCs.

Upper_Krust · Mar 16, 2009

Hey CapnZapp!

CapnZapp said:
The farthest I would be willing to stretch it is that while you can't fight a God, you can work to diminish its influence. Basically, reduce the faith and worship directed at it.

And it is here I can see a place for the Avatars (the level 35 monsters that WotC have statted up). Instead of spending decades converting the masses away from worshipping a certain god, it can be a more appropriate action for epic heroes to fight and defeat the god's avatar to acomplish the same thing.

The god won't be destroyed, but the defeat of the avatar could mean a serious blow to the faith of the populace, which pretty much amounts to the same thing.

If it amounts to the same thing as destroying a god then I don't really see much difference in allowing the god to be destroyed anyway.

CapnZapp said:
Of course, if or when WotC decide to publish an Immortals Tier Handbook (player character options for levels 31-40), they need to retcon the existing stats as not-quite-the-god anyway...

Not really...and for the record I do plan to release character options for Levels 31-50 (31-40 = Legendary Tier, 41-50 = Immortal Tier). I have ideas for up to 80th-level, but I don't think I'll be able to create enough monsters beyond 55th-level to make tiers beyond the Immortal Tier worthwhile.

The existing stats are perfectly fine as they are. When individual PCs are as powerful as Vecna or Tiamat (for example) then five of them won't see Vecna or Tiamat as anything more than a standard opponent (or about Level 44 I estimate). Chances are they will be facing Solo opponents more akin to Elder Gods and True Primordials at that juncture.

Jhaelen · Mar 16, 2009

Upper_Krust said:
Howdy Jhaelen!

Wizards (of the Coast) and I disagree with you.

Howdy Upper_Krust!

Of course, I know that already - we've met before (well, virtually) discussing the very same topic in 3E. My opinion hasn't changed, and I don't get tired mentioning it whenever appropriate.

Imho, if a being deserves being called a 'God' it shouldn't be possible to be defeated by anything less than a 'God'. Otherwise it's just some incredibly powerful being that aspires to become a 'God', like say, several of the top-tier demon/devil lords.

Maybe I just disagree on a semantic level...

CapnZapp · Mar 17, 2009

Jhaelen said:
Maybe I just disagree on a semantic level...

Me too... To me a true god isn't just some dude with really cool moves and bolts and such.

It's more like a swirling cloud of sentience, existing everywhere at the same time.

You can't kill it, and you can't become it. (Not unless you give up your mortal - humanoid - form, and the petty desires that go with it, at least)

Thus I will treat any monster WotC calls a "god" it's favored avatar or something.

The only way to eradicate a god would be, by definition, to have 1) nobody believing in it and 2) nobody even knowing it existed.

A tall order to be sure, but nothing a group of Epic heroes can't accomplish, given a suitably long campaign arc!

But most importantly: you can't accomplish it simply by smashing its face in.

That's so incredibly simplistic and debasing to the entire concept, in my honest opinion.

I do realize my vision isn't shared by WotC, however. As long as it remains easy to say "that wasn't the god you just offed, only its personal champion" I don't have much of a problem though.

Keveras · Mar 17, 2009

Upper_Krust said:
Well didn't an official source by WotC peg Moradin at 37th?

Moradin might be on lvl 38, according to Rich Baker. And according to Ari Marmell, who wrote the Bane article, Bane might be on lvl 38 or 39

S'mon · Mar 17, 2009

CapnZapp said:
That's so incredibly simplistic and debasing to the entire concept, in my honest opinion.

Yet it's a lot closer to many real world mythologies than is your approach. Myths don't present (eg) the Norse gods as anything like these omnipresent unkillable diffuse energy beings of yours. Why should WotC?

That said, I have no problem with settings where gods never appear and their existence is moot, as in REH's Conan stories. Or you could have a setting where gods only appear obliquely, through visions and auguries. But there's tons of respectable precedent for the alternative.