Need confirmation on number of AoOs for ranged touch spells

Space Coyote · Mar 23, 2009

The debate: Casting a ranged touch spell (like Ray of Enfeeblement, for example) provokes two attacks of Opportunity; One for casting a spell and a second for making a "ranged" attack.

Argument #1 Ranged attack spells are "ranged" attacks (like using a bow, or throwing a dagger) and therefore provokes an AoO for the attack, as well as one for casting a spell.

Argument #2 Page 141 of the PH specifically states that "Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack and therefore does not provoke an attack of opportunity. " and "Touch spells come in two types; melee touch attacks (for touches made with, say, your hand) and ranged touch attacks (for touches made with magic rays, for example)." These two sentences specifically point out that ranged touch spells (like rays) do NOT provoke an attack of opportunity for being a 'ranged' attack (but still provoke for the spell casting).

Although that seems pretty straight forward and indicates that ranged touch spells do NOT provoke two AoOs, I have a player in my group who insists that they do and will not be swayed. So I need additional input from outside my gaming group. Thanks.

pawsplay · Mar 23, 2009

No, you do not provoke two AoOs. If you will observe, the AoO for making a ranged attack is noted on the Actions in Combat table, as a standard action. Taking a ranged attack, as an action in combat, draws an AoO. Casting a spell is an entirely different standard action that also happens to draw an AoO. Casting a spell is also on that same chart.

Since a ray spell is aimed "as if" making a ranged attack, per the magic system, you would still potentially have to contend with a penalty for firing into melee.

azhrei_fje · Mar 23, 2009

pawsplay said:
No, you do not provoke two AoOs.

Agreed.

In addition, making an attack with a touch spell is part of the spell casting. Otherwise, you'd have a standard action for casting the spell and an attack action (part of a standard action or full attack action) for making the touch attack. You don't get two standard actions in a round. In fact, the attack being part of the casting is clearly stated (somewhere) in the SRD.

Jeff Wilder · Mar 23, 2009

I disagree.

The "touching with a touch spell doesn't provoke" is included because normally an unarmed attack does provoke. You "touch" with a melee touch spell. You do not "touch" someone with a ranged touch spell; you "hit" them. Nowhere in the rules is the phrasing of "touching" someone with a ranged touch spell used.

A ranged attack provokes. This has nothing to do with whether it's an attack action, a standard action, or any other kind of action.

If someone with a bow were, for example, targeted with snake's swiftness, the resulting free ranged attack, which takes no action at all, still provokes an AoO. Because it is, as the spell says, a "ranged attack." And the rules say that a ranged attack provokes an AoO.

The rules for a ray spell say that it is a ranged attack. A ranged attack provokes an AoO. The exception for touch spells applies to touch spells used in melee combat, and exists because normally the action of attempting to touch someone in melee combat provokes an AoO. But because the caster is holding a dangerous spell, he is considered armed, and thus doesn't provoke. That logic, again, does not apply to ranged touch spells.

irdeggman · Mar 23, 2009

While I think the RAW suppports 2 AoO being generated I don't like it at all.

I personally feel that the attack is part of the casting and not a separate action. It is actions that generate AoO not conditions. The attack is not a separate action but rather part of the casting.

I ran across this when running a psion. Manifested defensively to eliminate the AoO but got felled by the AoO for using a ranged attack at the opponent.

Personally I think that is the point of manifesting/casting defensively - to eliminate the AoO from using the poer/spell. But a strict reading of the RAW would go with the generating 2 AoO.

Note that this strict reading would also have an archer with multiple attacks generate an AoO for each individual attack (arrow).

irdeggman · Mar 23, 2009

Jeff Wilder said:
The "touching with a touch spell doesn't provoke" is included because normally an unarmed attack does provoke. You "touch" with a melee touch spell. You do not "touch" someone with a ranged touch spell; you "hit" them. Nowhere in the rules is the phrasing of "touching" someone with a ranged touch spell used.

A ranged attack provokes. This has nothing to do with whether it's an attack action, a standard action, or any other kind of action.

But to counter that

ATTACKS OF OPPORTUNITY
During combat, you threaten all squares adjacent to yours, even
when it’s not your turn. An opponent that takes certain actions
while in a threatened square provokes an attack of opportunity from
you. An attack of opportunity is a free melee attack that does not use
up any of your actions. You can make one attack of opportunity per
round. Actions that provoke attacks of opportunity include moving
(except as noted below), casting a spell, and attacking with a ranged
weapon.

The question to answer is the attack a separate action or part of a different action?

Also in the case of a spell does it interupt the casting of the spell?

An attack of opportunity “interrupts” the normal flow of actions in the round. If an attack of opportunity is provoked, immediately resolve the attack of opportunity, then continue with the next character’s turn (or complete the current turn, if the attack of opportunity was provoked in the midst of a character’s turn).

Attacks of Opportunity: Generally, if you cast a spell, you provoke attacks of opportunity from threatening enemies. If you take damage from an attack of opportunity, you must make a Concentration check (DC 10 + points of damage taken + spell level) or lose the spell. Spells that require only a free action to cast don’t provoke attacks of opportunity.

Note that for ranged spells you do not have the option of "holding" the spell like you do for a touch spell.

Touch Spells in Combat: Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject, either in the same round or any time later. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) the target. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.

Which lends credence to my interpretatin that the attack of a ranged spell is part of the casting and not a separate action.

Jeff Wilder · Mar 23, 2009

irdeggman said:
But to counter that: ATTACKS OF OPPORTUNITY
During combat, you threaten all squares adjacent to yours, even
when it’s not your turn. An opponent that takes certain actions
while in a threatened square provokes an attack of opportunity

This use of "actions" is the English language usage, not the rules usage. Making a ranged attack is an action (English language), and also usually an "attack action" (rules).

irdeggman said:
The question to answer is the attack a separate action or part of a different action?

No, that's really not the question. The question is, "Is it a ranged attack?" The answer is "yes." Therefore there's an AoO.

irdeggman said:
Also in the case of a spell does it interupt the casting of the spell?

Huh? Of course an AoO interrupts a spell (possibly ruining it, if it hits and the caster blows Concentration). That's why melee types close with spellcasters.

SRD said:
Touch Spells in Combat: Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject, either in the same round or any time later. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) the target. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.

Note the bolded portion. These rules apply to touch spells (spells with a range of touch), not spells that have a ranged touch attack associated with them.

irdeggman said:
Which lends credence to my interpretatin that the attack of a ranged spell is part of the casting and not a separate action.

No, it really doesn't. Regardless, it doesn't matter if its a "separate action" in rules terms. It only matters if it's a ranged attack. Which it is.

Jhaelen · Mar 23, 2009

Space Coyote said:
The debate: Casting a ranged touch spell (like Ray of Enfeeblement, for example) provokes two attacks of Opportunity; One for casting a spell and a second for making a "ranged" attack.
[...]
Although that seems pretty straight forward and indicates that ranged touch spells do NOT provoke two AoOs, I have a player in my group who insists that they do and will not be swayed. So I need additional input from outside my gaming group. Thanks.

There's no debate:
You only provoke once. The ranged touch attack is part of the spellcasting.

If the player isn't happy about your (correct) interpretation of the rules, you may want to politely offer him to leave the game.

pawsplay · Mar 23, 2009

Jeff Wilder said:
A ranged attack provokes. This has nothing to do with whether it's an attack action, a standard action, or any other kind of action.

Cite that rule.

irdeggman · Mar 23, 2009

Jeff Wilder said:
Huh? Of course an AoO interrupts a spell (possibly ruining it, if it hits and the caster blows Concentration). That's why melee types close with spellcasters.

Then for every ranged attack spell there are 2 AoO that can interupt the spell casting.

Note I am not talking about whether or not the blow renders the caster uncosncious but rather if now the caster must make a concentration check (with damage incurred) to prevent losing the spell.

This is the rule that you have now applied by stating that "action" is the English usage and not a separate "action" in the case of spell casting.

Noting also tht you have also made the attack part of the casting so that the spell can be disrupted via the AoO generated by the attack itself and not jsut the casting a spell action.

Actions generate AoO not conditions.

Need confirmation on number of AoOs for ranged touch spells

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