Forked Thread:Is a more OD&D feel game the natural evolutionary endpoint?[game rules]

xechnao · Apr 5, 2009

Forked from: Is a more OD&D feel game the natural evolutionary endpoint? Is OD&D actually AD&D?

joethelawyer said:
, no heroic quests for the greater good, and no save the world crap. Just a bunch of bards in a band who want to kick ass, get rich, and get laid, not necessarily in that order.

How or what game rules can make you draw a distinctive line among the two? Or to put it differently where does the distinctive line stands?

Is this happening because of the XP level system of the PCs?
If the game was build around the world's moving powers and gave PCs the options to deal with this (so the game rules and balance build on a ground like this) rather than the other way around would we have to face the same problematics as the one I forked here?

howandwhy99 · Apr 6, 2009

xechnao said:
Forked from: Is a more OD&D feel game the natural evolutionary endpoint? Is OD&D actually AD&D?

joethelawyer said:

, no heroic quests for the greater good, and no save the world crap. Just a bunch of bards in a band who want to kick ass, get rich, and get laid, not necessarily in that order.

Click to expand...

I'm not sure I am the person to answer you here as it appears you're addressing Joe specifically. But I can give an answer, if that'll do.

How or what game rules can make you draw a distinctive line among the two? Or to put it differently where does the distinctive line stands?
I think it's about motivations expected of the players. It's more an adventure design game construction than a specific edition's ruleset. The game rules do not determine that the PCs must save the world, but often times the advice in the books suggest making a module or campaign world about quests. The quest mechanic itself doesn't help either.

Is this happening because of the XP level system of the PCs?
XP rewards now reward elements of a character they did not before, so in a way the answer is yes. But programmed encounters to level is the bigger issue. If the game is really about the players playing their characters well, then the monsters/NPCs are the level the players happen in to, not preplanned "encounters" fit for maximum "fun". Sometimes the Players/Characters lose because they chose the wrong NPCs to compete against.

If the game was build around the world's moving powers and gave PCs the options to deal with this (so the game rules and balance build on a ground like this) rather than the other way around would we have to face the same problematics as the one I forked here?
This is a bit hard to follow for newcomers to the thread. I'm guessing you mean the PCs have or do not have an option to deal with "the world's moving powers".

From which I take it you mean the Save the World adventure is optional or determined before play begins, right? Personally, I could be down for either, but the second has to be a single adventure and not a campaign. Any time the game objective shifts from "Get XP by playing your role" to "achieve so and so", then the whole of the game changes in vast ways. Can the players "achieve so and so" while trying to get XP by playing their roles? Sure, but it's about the overall objective of the game. And "do this or the world (game) ends" is not good design, if your goal is a consistent, long-term game (read: campaign).

xechnao · Apr 6, 2009

howandwhy99 said:
I'm not sure I am the person to answer you here as it appears you're addressing Joe specifically. But I can give an answer, if that'll do.

No, that was not the intention. Everyone who wants should address this. I thank you for your answer.

howandwhy99 said:
This is a bit hard to follow for newcomers to the thread. I'm guessing you mean the PCs have or do not have an option to deal with "the world's moving powers".

From which I take it you mean the Save the World adventure is optional or determined before play begins, right? Personally, I could be down for either, but the second has to be a single adventure and not a campaign. Any time the game objective shifts from "Get XP by playing your role" to "achieve so and so", then the whole of the game changes in vast ways. Can the players "achieve so and so" while trying to get XP by playing their roles? Sure, but it's about the overall objective of the game. And "do this or the world (game) ends" is not good design, if your goal is a consistent, long-term game (read: campaign).

Games like Burning Empires, 7th sea or Reign (perhaps even Book of 5 Rings) have structure elements like the ones I am talking about. PCs are identified in the game by their relative properties or qualities as members of campaign groups such as some faction, school, guild or clan.

In D&D this only gets mentioned in some instances such as the ethos of priests.

Mythmere1 · Apr 6, 2009

Howandwhy nailed the question pretty well, I think. Couldn't have said it better myself.

howandwhy99 · Apr 6, 2009

xechnao said:
Games like Burning Empires, 7th sea or Reign (perhaps even Book of 5 Rings) have structure elements like the ones I am talking about. PCs are identified in the game by their relative properties or qualities as members of campaign groups such as some faction, school, guild or clan.

In D&D this only gets mentioned in some instances such as the ethos of priests.

Organizational (versus racial) alignment relationship maps (sociograms to be specific) are certainly a house rule that was in print starting in 1980. (the first publication date I've seen it. Maybe earlier.) You could definitely start a campaign with this house rule and either begin with the PCs just joining an organization, starting their own, or simply leave the option out on the table to do either during play. Either way the PCs will almost certainly get caught up in the workings of these relationships, so their influence over the playing of the game will be felt.

Racial and monster relationships between races/monsters have been around since '74, so extrapolating to organizational (mixed race/monster) status for such a map isn't a big step.

Not to mention the primary purpose of these maps are to define NPCs status in relation to PCs more than anything else. So you might qualify the PC party as an organization too, but I prefer individual PC alignments myself. It leaves open intra-party interactions and keeps personal alignment status and PC party inclusion directly in the hands of the players.

joethelawyer · Apr 6, 2009

Mythmere1 said:
Howandwhy nailed the question pretty well, I think. Couldn't have said it better myself.

if i'm understanding the question, the XP system in Pathfinder had to change for me to make this type of adventure possible. My new XP system brings back gold as XP awards, uses the Pathfinder slow rogression table and incorporates other stuff. Fighting will be perhaps 20% of the XP award in a session, treasure looting 60%, and the rest of the stuff below will amount to a combined 20%.

Another issue with the rules that makes this sort of camaign a pain in the arse is the act tat the bard's cool abilities are songs to enhance fighting. My players characters will not be fighting a lot, obviously, so the main ability of their bards is a waste. I am looking for some alternatives to those things. A song to seduce, song to get people to drink more, song to create mosh pits, all those things are going through my head.

While the character motivations in this case determine a lot, like whether they are out to save the world or not, the rules ultimately do have an effect on making that motivation happen. I find i don't have as much of a problem with the rules in not doing the save the world stuff. The rules do get in the way though if the game is not combat oriented. Hence the changes above.

1.How well they make their performance checks for each song.

2.Proper song arrangement.

3.Cool new song lyrics.

4.If the players themselves sing a few verses of the songs (likely requires a lot of beer).

5.Fighting, of course.

6.Successful theft .

7.Getting laid (some sort of dice roll required to score), extra XP if it’s a nobleman’s daughter or some such target.

8.Roleplaying the characters well.

9.Living the lifestyle of a modern rock and roll band.

10.Gold, magic or other treasure gained.

11.Battle of the bands victories

Lanefan · Apr 7, 2009

joethelawyer said:
1.How well they make their performance checks for each song.

2.Proper song arrangement.

3.Cool new song lyrics.

4.If the players themselves sing a few verses of the songs (likely requires a lot of beer).

5.Fighting, of course.

6.Successful theft .

7.Getting laid (some sort of dice roll required to score), extra XP if it’s a nobleman’s daughter or some such target.

8.Roleplaying the characters well.

9.Living the lifestyle of a modern rock and roll band.

10.Gold, magic or other treasure gained.

11.Battle of the bands victories.