Forked Thread: GTS 2009 D&D Seminar - 4e video game

xechnao · Apr 19, 2009

Forked from: GTS 2009 D&D Seminar - the Rouse discusses D&D

hong said:
Ah, so you're saying that immediate actions are not in fact a barrier to a 4E game. That's good to hear! Unfortunately, this would appear to be more of an indication that you have misunderestimated the complexity of immediate actions as they interrelate with powers, rather than a correct analysis thereof.

But, but, you get ppl complaining about how everyone having daily powers leads to the 15-minute day and stuff. You can't be saying that they're wrong and 4E characters can keep going like Energizer bunnies, can you?

Nonsense. Cf Mass Effect, which doesn't even track ammunition. Or even Fallout 3, which is 99% exploration-oriented, but lets you warp to your home base for R&R.

xechnao · Apr 19, 2009

Perhaps you are correct. From the way I understand AI and calculation-computation works the problematic does not really exist to the barriers you are talking about plus regarding game development I would have a difficult time to make something interesting out of it Baldur's Gate wise. Daily cycles does not seem to me something that you could easily build some plot-explorative development for the public of modern games. "Dark Seed" an old adventure game was a game build on something like this but the whole story is based on this to make any sense.

Piratecat · Apr 19, 2009

Thank you!

hong · Apr 19, 2009

The daily cycle thing certainly isn't necessary for an exploration-heavy game. On a computer, you can have long refresh cycles without a specific rest period. Computer gamers are also well-used by now to abstract hit points, even more so than p&p gamers I suspect; so they probably wouldn't even mind not having to sleep for 8 hours a day.

As said, the main obstacle is basically allowing for immediate actions. You can have powers that trigger on a hit, on a miss, on an attack, when someone moves too close, when someone moves away... and they can go off either before or after the triggering event is resolved.

The most practical solution would probably to let the AI handle everything, rather than allowing the player to choose when to use, say, Disrupting Shot.

xechnao · Apr 19, 2009

hong said:
The daily cycle thing certainly isn't necessary for an exploration-heavy game. On a computer, you can have long refresh cycles without a specific rest period. Computer gamers are also well-used by now to abstract hit points, even more so than p&p gamers I suspect; so they probably wouldn't even mind not having to sleep for 8 hours a day.

As said, the main obstacle is basically allowing for immediate actions. You can have powers that trigger on a hit, on a miss, on an attack, when someone moves too close, when someone moves away... and they can go off either before or after the triggering event is resolved.

The most practical solution would probably to let the AI handle everything, rather than allowing the player to choose when to use, say, Disrupting Shot.

The AI would definitely have to handle this for the monsters-this is to be expected, no? For the players it could give a warning activation sign and let you know so you decide if you pull the trigger on not (for the cases that pulling the trigger could change your tactical position).

As far as rest cycles go I have not seen anything similar kept abstract in a explorative video game before expect for the D&D spells. Perhaps some "ki representation"?

Regarding the AI problem of yours again: was it because you were thinking real time? If so, then yes, the game would have to be turn based to be 4e. Heavily turn based games perhaps, yes, lack some points in the plot development matter game design wise because combats tend to take more time and effort-especially if we are talking about 7-10 turns. In this case I suspect we are talking about the same thing from different POVs. Jagged alliance combat is turn based indeed and takes lots of time, effort and part of the game indeed.

Mustrum_Ridcully · Apr 19, 2009

hong said:
The daily cycle thing certainly isn't necessary for an exploration-heavy game. On a computer, you can have long refresh cycles without a specific rest period. Computer gamers are also well-used by now to abstract hit points, even more so than p&p gamers I suspect; so they probably wouldn't even mind not having to sleep for 8 hours a day.

As said, the main obstacle is basically allowing for immediate actions. You can have powers that trigger on a hit, on a miss, on an attack, when someone moves too close, when someone moves away... and they can go off either before or after the triggering event is resolved.

The most practical solution would probably to let the AI handle everything, rather than allowing the player to choose when to use, say, Disrupting Shot.

I have heard that WoW does have similar powers that activate as reactions. I have no idea what they are or how they work.

I still prefer a turn-based game, and in that you can deal with interrupts. Jagged Alliance did it all the time (Still one of my favorite tactical games...)

Of course, that won't work in an MMORPG.

There is certainly a way t bring immediate actions into an interface:
If an immediate action is triggered, an icon appears indicating it is available - if you press it (or a short cut), the action will be taken. The icon will be visible for only a short time. (Alernatively, instead of having an icon to take a trigger, there might be an icon to not take a trigger, so that the default assumption is you take your opportunty.)

I think one of the harder parts is managing movement and positional abilities in a real time game. Organizing flanking in a real time 2D environment is hard, for example..

hong · Apr 19, 2009

Yeah, I'm talking turn based, but you still want the interface not to get bogged down when everyone has interrupt powers.

IIRC, in Jagged Alliance the only triggered action is to shoot someone, and the only trigger is when they move into your field of view. That's a lot less complicated than in 4E.

WhatGravitas · Apr 19, 2009

Mustrum_Ridcully said:
I think one of the harder parts is managing movement and positional abilities in a real time game. Organizing flanking in a real time 2D environment is hard, for example..

If you don't introduce squares. And you lose the fine control of "push" effects, that squares and round-based combat offers you. And proper collision control is *hard* - but I think to be successful, a game must be square-less, unless you make it a very tactical game, akin to Jagged Alliance/X-Com model.

Cheers, LT.

Mustrum_Ridcully · Apr 19, 2009

hong said:
Yeah, I'm talking turn based, but you still want the interface not to get bogged down when everyone has interrupt powers.

IIRC, in Jagged Alliance the only triggered action is to shoot someone, and the only trigger is when they move into your field of view. That's a lot less complicated than in 4E.

You are correct, the triggers in JA2 are very simple. 4E basically allows a trigger you can define however you want, but I think it might be possible to reduce the possible triggers for a game to a workable amount...

I am certain that whoever will do this will unashamedly throw out any non-simple interrupt powers, if not the entire mechanic.

My bigger worry is that it won't be turn & party based at all. My biggest gripe with NWN in general...

xechnao · Apr 19, 2009

hong said:
Yeah, I'm talking turn based, but you still want the interface not to get bogged down when everyone has interrupt powers.

IIRC, in Jagged Alliance the only triggered action is to shoot someone, and the only trigger is when they move into your field of view. That's a lot less complicated than in 4E.

When there is some kind of trigger that needs the player decide just stop action make the character glow. You need but a click to decide if you pull the trigger or not.

You can very easily add some info about what the trigger does on the PCs selection icon that would lie somewhere in the interface.