Forked Thread: GTS 2009 D&D Seminar - 4e video game

[xechnao]

Exactly. Which has nothing to do with resting for 8 hours every day.

I fail to see what point you are trying to make here. In Baldur's Gate in some instances and especially Jagged Alliance resting has its importance exploration wise. Aside from resource management (and tiredness) not only in the tactical map but also at the same time in the strategical-exploration map (distances) there are times where time is a factor. For example Minsk in BG1 needed you to complete his quest under three days. In jagged alliance OTOH time is a constant strategic factor.

In 4e time is a factor regarding encounter resources too. It is only connected to the management or rather tracking of a simple level though (you either have the daily resource or not and you know very well when this happens (when and how you can regain it) -not consumable strategic ones that you can balance them in the various ways you can choose that can create this open ended effect. Of course this does not mean you cant have exploration decisions because of it, but it does not help either. You will have to add more stuff.

But adding more stuff to a 4e game is not such a good idea IMO after a certain point. The game is robust tactically will various tactical solutions a player would need to keep his attention on. Adding more things can make the game really complicated for your average player.

 

[hong]

Alright, looking back, I thought you were talking about multiple paths of developing your character.

Technically you mentioned multiple paths of developing yourself as a player.

So its possible that my earlier comments weren't relevant to what you were saying.

But now I have no idea at all what you are saying. I completely fail to grasp your point in any possible way. I don't even know what multiple paths of development as a player even means.

For the record, in case people got the wrong idea about Avernum, there are significant plot branches, multiple endings, and each individual character in your four person party can be developed in a wide variety of ways through the use of a point buy system that rewards certain types of specialization, and allows for emergent properties to occur when abilities are gained in certain combinations.

Xechnow has got it into his head that a key component of Baldur's Gate, without which the game would have been but a pale shadow of itself, was resource management a la 1E/2E/3E. You know, the fade-to-black you'd have every half-hour or so when all your spells and hit points were blown.

Of course, noone I know actually mentioned this as a key part of the BG/Infinity Engine experience, and I used to read the Black Isle boards and alt.fan.baldurs-gate back in the days. They all focused on big explorable areas, nonlinear gameplay (even if it did get very linear when you neared the climax), memorable NPCs, lush graphics, extensibility via fan-created hacks, and so on. And never mind also that 4E does in fact have daily powers and healing surges, so you could still have that fade-to-black if you wanted.

 

[hong]

I fail to see what point you are trying to make here. In Baldur's Gate in some instances and especially Jagged Alliance resting has its importance exploration wise. Aside from resource management (and tiredness) not only in the tactical map but also at the same time in the strategical-exploration map (distances) there are times where time is a factor. For example Minsk in BG1 needed you to complete his quest under three days. In jagged alliance OTOH time is a constant strategic factor.

In 4e time is a factor regarding encounter resources too. It is only connected to the management or rather tracking of a simple level though (you either have the daily resource or not and you know very well when this happens (when and how you can regain it) -not consumable strategic ones that you can balance them in the various ways you can choose that can create this open ended effect. Of course this does not mean you cant have exploration decisions because of it, but it does not help either. You will have to add more stuff.

Minsc needs you to complete his quest in 3 days. This does not depend on what version of D&D you use. Other than that, you can take as long as you like to finish the game.

In Baldurs Gate, you rest when you run out of spells and/or hp. In 4E, you rest when you run out of daily powers and/or healing surges.

In Baldurs Gate, there may be places where you can't rest. This does not depend on what version of D&D you use.

In Baldurs Gate, there are some party abilities that remain available even if you don't rest. In 4E, you have basic attacks, at-wills and encounter powers that remain available even if you don't rest.

But adding more stuff to a 4e game is not such a good idea IMO after a certain point. The game is robust tactically will various tactical solutions a player would need to keep his attention on. Adding more things can make the game really complicated for your average player.

You have a big button that says "click here to rest". It is that simple. Of course, having the fade-to-black every half-hour sounds like a retrograde step to me, so I don't know why you'd want to do that. Oh wait, you'd need it because 4E does in fact have abilities that recharge after a long rest. So there is no "adding more stuff" going on.

 

[Cadfan]

Xechnow has got it into his head that a key component of Baldur's Gate, without which the game would have been but a pale shadow of itself, was resource management a la 1E/2E/3E. You know, the fade-to-black you'd have every half-hour or so when all your spells and hit points were blown.

Of course, noone I know actually mentioned this as a key part of the BG/Infinity Engine experience, and I used to read the Black Isle boards and alt.fan.baldurs-gate back in the days. They all focused on big explorable areas, nonlinear gameplay (even if it did get very linear when you neared the climax), memorable NPCs, lush graphics, extensibility via fan-created hacks, and so on. And never mind also that 4E does in fact have daily powers and healing surges, so you could still have that fade-to-black if you wanted.

Right... I just don't know what he means by you, the player, developing yourself. At first I thought he meant developing your character, ie, leveling in particular ways, etc. But that's not what he said. He probably doesn't mean FPS style "character development = additional weapons + increased player proficiency" player development. So I don't know what he means.

 

[xechnao]

Technically you mentioned multiple paths of developing yourself as a player.

Yep, this is more like it. The video game experience we started talking about is more suitably approached through this point of view. We were not talking about the Sims but Baldur's Gate.

So its possible that my earlier comments weren't relevant to what you were saying.

But now I have no idea at all what you are saying. I completely fail to grasp your point in any possible way. I don't even know what multiple paths of development as a player even means.

I did not transfer the whole discussion on this started on the original thread. The matter was of whether it is feasible to make a new video game with the strong selling points of Bladur's Gate game with 4e.

Of course something important to add here: Strong here being in relation to the modern market.

 

[RangerWickett]

A D&D video game should probably have a long story arc that goes from low level to maximum level, like an adventure path (or a campaign saga).

However, I would rather have an easy recharge mechanic (like potions of MP; they're a classic), than have actual daily powers. Actually, I would rather have a "battle groove" meter, which charges as you fight, and as you do stuff that fits your character's combat style (like hitting from concealment for a sneaky rogue, or keeping your buddies from getting hit for a fighter). Using your 'daily powers' would drain the meter, but you could always recharge it.

 

[hong]

Yeah, a videogame doesn't need something as clunky as a daily recharge mechanic. But you don't want to stray too far from the established ruleset either, or it isn't "D&D" anymore.

 

[Cadfan]

Yep, this is more like it. The video game experience we started talking about is more suitably approached through this point of view. We were not talking about the Sims but Baldur's Gate.

I still don't understand what you mean by developing yourself as a player.

If you mean growth in player skill, then FPSs do that best, and they're usually completely linear.

If you mean growth as a human being... I've only ever felt that one game did that for me. That game was Immortal Defense, an indy game, and the biggest mind screw you will ever experience in your gaming life. Also its completely linear. Its linearity is part of what blows your mind- you kind of want to get off the train, but the train is dictated by your character's personality, and you can't really argue with it... its not something that can be explained instead of experienced. Its the only game that ever made me feel... complicit.

 

[xechnao]

In Baldurs Gate, you rest when you run out of spells and/or hp.

Well, I was trying to say and most probably this has not been clear to you that in BG there are various ways to deal with this matter and the game is build around these ways. The ways hps and spells end and the way you can regain or replace them are more connected to the exploration and have more variables. Rest is such a variable: you could choose to rest but you could also choose to go on (each decision with its own risks and ways to deal with it and devlop through it: of course there were some limits that placed the viable extremes in each way of the various variables and thus made them all significant and an effort to balance them important).

Baldur's Gate was not a success just because of its NPCs and beautiful sites. These were an important or rather necessary decoration to the game for its high marks indeed, but just a decoration.

 

[hong]

Well, I was trying to say and most probably this has not been clear to you that in BG there are various ways to deal with this matter and the game is build around these ways. The ways hps and spells end and the way you can regain or replace them are more connected to the exploration and have more variables. Rest is such a variable: you could choose to rest but you could also choose to go on (each decision with its own risks and ways to deal with it and devlop through it: of course there were some limits that placed the viable extremes in each way of the various variables and thus made them all significant and an effort to balance them important).

And this

1. Does not change with 4E

2. Is still not something that was part of BG's core appeal. It was there because it was part of how AD&D worked, and that's about it.

Baldur's Gate was not a success just because of its NPCs and beautiful sites. These were an important or rather necessary decoration to the game for its high marks indeed, but just a decoration.

Well, you are the first person I know to ever make such a song and dance about the resource management side of things. I mean, I've even seen ppl refer to "YOU MUST GATHER YOUR PARTY BEFORE VENTURING FORTH" in affectionate tones, but the half-hourly fade to black? Nope.