How Important is Magic to Dungeons and Dragons? - Third Edition vs Fourth Edition

Fallen Seraph · Apr 27, 2009

Mark said:
The right kinds and amount of magic are an individual thing for RPGers, perhaps, but magic being commonplace in the setting has never been something I personally felt comfortable having in games I have either run or in which I have played.

One funny thing I have noticed is that I am more comfortable/like to see more "supernatural" and not so much "magic". Now that may seem a silly distinction, or no distinction at all. But I dunno... There is one.

Though some games I like lots of magic, just not the majority of the time.

Crothian · Apr 27, 2009

nightwyrm said:
Aren't stat boosts much hard to get back in those days? And 3d6 was pretty much the standard rolling method back then.

Only took something like 10 wishes to boost an 18 to a 19 I think. And casting a wish aged the person which meant they had to make some sort of check based on con like system reaction to see if that killed them. At least I think that's how it was, it has certainly been a couple decades or so.

Mark · Apr 27, 2009

Fallen Seraph said:
One funny thing I have noticed is that I am more comfortable/like to see more "supernatural" and not so much "magic". Now that may seem a silly distinction, or no distinction at all. But I dunno... There is one.

That's an interesting distinction and I would like to read how you might better delineate, though I think I get where you are going.

Kask · Apr 27, 2009

Crothian said:
Only took something like 10 wishes to boost an 18 to a 19 I think.

Or, one tome of clear thought...

Crothian · Apr 27, 2009

Kask said:
Or, one tome of clear thought...

With the magic items random tables though it was not easy to find one. Assuming one gets lucky to roll for any magical item. There is a 3% chance to get on the right table and then a 1% to get a tome of clear thought. I'm sure that number goes down if we include the table from the popular Unearthed Arcana.

Kask · Apr 27, 2009

Crothian said:
With the magic items random tables though it was not easy to find one. Assuming one gets lucky to roll for any magical item. There is a 3% chance to get on the right table and then a 1% to get a tome of clear thought. I'm sure that number goes down if we include the table from the popular Unearthed Arcana.

Sounds like your DM never read page 92 of the DMG... Random generation & placement of powerful items was a BIG no, no.

Crothian · Apr 27, 2009

Kask said:
Sounds like your DM never read page 92 of the DMG... Random generation & placement of powerful items was a BIG no, no.

I wouldn't consider it a powerful item though and just placing useful powerful magic items there for the PCs seems so 4e. But still, if they didn't want powerful items to be randomly generated then they shouldn't have put them on the tables.

But I'm sure there were plenty of big and small no's that we did anyway. The game had its one way of playing and that never really worked for us.

Kask · Apr 27, 2009

Crothian said:
But still, if they didn't want powerful items to be randomly generated then they shouldn't have put them on the tables.

Page 92 covers that exact point.

Mustrum_Ridcully · Apr 27, 2009

Cadfan said:
I don't think that's necessarily the case. You might only have 4 second level spell slots, but you'd also have 4 first level spell slots, third level spell slots, etc, etc, etc.

There are only so many "rounds" of action in a given day (I use "rounds" here in a subjective sense to refer to instances where a spell might be useful). As the number of spell slots exceeds the number of rounds (which happens quickly when combat happens only once or twice per day and lasts only a round or two), the only REAL balancing factor is the potential for the wizard's player to guess wrong when he prepares his spells. And as the number of spells increases, the likelihood of guessing wrong goes down because you can cover more bases.

I think there is still a big difference between 4 spell slots and 7 for every level. It is not neglible. It might still be enough, but with 7 slots, you are almost guaranteed to have every spell on that level that has a reasonable chance to be useful. And then rest can be easily covered with scrolls, that are only a given in 3.x, not in earlier editions.

While a day of rest can fix it all, you don't always have that day of rest. And that's at least a reasonable chance for other characters to shine - provided magic is not the only solution for a problem, of course.

The only counter-balancing fact in 3.x for spellcasters was that monsters got a lot more hit points. But that just meant that you picked spells that didn't deal hit point damage and otherwise hindered your foes.

ExploderWizard · Apr 27, 2009

I think magic is important to any edition of D&D. One problem
with magic in 4E is that its so common that it's become more mundane.
Part of this problem started in 3E with the item crafting rules and all
of the +x to something slotted items that a PC could hardly be able to
do without.

Once magic becomes so common there isn't a lot left that seems
really magical. Advanced technology can be magical if the principles
that it works on are unknown. In a fantasy world without gunpowder,
a flintlock pistol is effectively a magic item. Once the knowledge of how
to make and use these pistols becomes known then they become simply
weapons.

Character abilities work the same way. If a non magic using character such as
a fighter performs feats that can only be explained as magic, and yet the ability
is labeled as non-magical, we have supernatural effects that have become mundane.
Every 4E class has abilities which would be magical or supernatural in any previous edition.
The only difference between magic/ non-magic that we have is a power source.
If the power source says that it isn't magical then the observer must be mistaken because
what just happened didn't really happen.

The whole concept of a spellcaster is meaningless if everyone has powers that
can do the kinds of things that spells do. Magic isn't a very mysterious force when
Grok the fighter can use rituals as well as the wizard. Adventurers are all just superheroes
with different schticks and costumes.

I know there are many who will disagree with this assessment and I will ask: What makes
magic "magical" to you?