D&D is a Horror Game

ppaladin123

Adventurer
I'm pretty sure that 100 years from now when D&D 15th edition is out and we all tap our brains directly into the d&d world server and live out our adventurers ala the matrix, D&D will be considered a horror game.

Imagine if you actually had to go dungeon delving and battle undead horrors and psionic creatures that can erase your mind. And you are doing this in a claustrophobic underground environment chock full of death traps... :)
 

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hong

WotC's bitch
My enduring memory of 1E and G123 is the party mages casting fireball, lightning bolt, chain lightning, and some other crap at everything in the frost giant rift, as they charged up at us. 2-3 rounds of mayhem later, they were all dead and we looted their bodies. Shortest dungeoncrawl ever.

This was after we did something similar to the hill giants in the main hall of the steading.

I wasn't there for the fire giants, but I'm told that they did it again on the bottom of the fire giant dungeon, when the DM went gate-crazy and had a balor bring in a whole army of demons.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
As a broad generalization, most D&D games do not have the tropes to be considered horror, in my opinion.

What the characters could have ended up as does not matter. That a rational person would have been afraid in those situations does not make the piece horror. That a plain person would have been scared in the same situation doesn't make it horror - because in a fantasy, the story isn't about a plain person, but a hero.

The issue is not "plot immunity" - it is power. Your typical horror protagonist doesn't have any. He or she is a shlub without the skills necessary to take on the darkness. This does not describe most fantasy characters. There are many kinds of fear. The fear in horror is a helpless fear, the fear in fantasy is not. In typical horror the dangers are strange, outside the protagonists' experience. Fantasy heroes are specialists in the strange, dangerous, and monstrous.

This is not to say you cannot play D&D (or other fantasy) has horror. I'm just talking about the typical variants.

For those who want a handle on the differences between fantasy and horror, I recommend the non-fiction treatise on the genre definition written by Stephen King (a current master), titled Danse Macabre.
 
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Betote

First Post
The success of the PCs and the deaths of monsters is certainly not hardcoded into the game. Especially at low levels, a roll on the provided random encounter tables results in an absolute slaughter more often than not if the PCs don't run.

It is hardoded into the game. Monster's Hit Dice in previous editions, CR in 3.x and monster levels in 4e are meant to be used so that the PCs can success when fighting against them. CR is described as "average party level of this level can overcome this monster spending about 20% of their resources", and monster level is "level of a character who can overcome it without being too easy".

Maybe in OD&D or in Holmes D&D, at 1st-3rd levels, the success rate is lower, but it's always more a logistics and strategy issue than something like an ominous horror-story-like threat.

And yes, Lovecraft was listed in the DMG1, but have you ever read his Dreamlands series? That's not horror. Horror is not ugly monsters nor possibility of PC death, but a sense of helplessness and powerlessness against the unkown. And of that, D&D "core" doesn't have any. Even Ravenloft or Midnight are hardly horror apart of their trappings.
 

Crothian

First Post
That's my whole point. There is no "writers vision" or predestined end game in traditional RPGs. The dice determine success and failure and fates. If you apply that standard to fantasy fiction, it all gets very nasty very quickly.

Isn't that what bad fan fiction is for?
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
It is hardoded into the game. Monster's Hit Dice in previous editions, CR in 3.x and monster levels in 4e are meant to be used so that the PCs can success when fighting against them.

The rules do not advise that you only throw challenges the PCs can beat.

Specifically: 3e DMG pg 100, and 3.5e pg 49 - they specifically suggest throwing encounters that the PCs cannot be reasonably expected to beat.

The reality is that encounter and adventure design is not "hard coded" at all, in any edition. The DMG gives some thoughts and advice, but not rules that anyone can point to and say have been broken. This is a place where the DM has always had the choice. If the DM wants to place the PCs in the position of always being overwhelmed, there's nothing in the rules that stop that - or even significantly inhibit it.

CR and monster levels are there so the DM has a handle on what he or she is doing. Don't confuse a tool to allow one to gauge difficulty with a mandate to not exceed what the PCs can handle.
 

Hippy

Explorer
Doug wrote-
If D&D was horror, they'd never have had to write Call of Cthulhu. Like Buffy, D&D has the trappings of horror but isn't. The PCs have far too many successes, there are lots of monsters and they mostly die. To make D&D horror you have to do away with the standard dungeon, make the game more like Cthulhu - each adventure would have only one monster, which should be powerful enough to win even if the PCs do everything right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimLotFP
I consider most of the classic fantasy, and certainly the pulpy stuff, to effectively be horror as well.

Well you're wrong.

My response:
I agree with the majority of posters who have said that D&D has elements of horror in it. It all depends on how you want to play it up or down in your own game. For those that want a heavier horror game there has been materials available to help you do this (i.e. Ravenloft setting, modules, books). However to say his opinion is wrong, is hardly fair. It is his opinion and is just as valid as yours, mine or anyone elses. We are not talking about mathematical certainty (i.e. 2+2=4) where there can be no other logical answer, but an interpretation of a literary genre.

Just my own two coppers worth,

Hippy:)
 

Jack7

First Post
Jim, it's an interesting and well-conceived argument in my opinion. I don't think it is true if you say, D&D is only a horror game. Then again as many others have pointed out it is silly to say it has no horror elements and horror is in many cases a perceptual matter in the eyes of the beholder (not that Beholder, who is certainly horrible, but the beholder beholding the encounter).

It is certainly a mythological and psychological as well as a literary and gaming argument. I think what you are saying (and you cna correct me if I'm off-base) is that by all historical accounts most people before our age would have considered monsters, horrible environments, vicious death, risking life and limb for unknown, dangerous, and potentially cursed reward as being elements of horror. Nowadays, being jaded to a certain extent, and with literature and other forms of media splitting into such small, self-contained, and heavily encapsulated "genre specialties, it is hard for many people to see horror unless it fulfills a certain prescribed and proscribed equation of X, Y, and Z. (If you're missing Y then it isn't really horror, it is the sub-branch specialty of fantasy game horror, but not fantasy video game horror. That's another branch of specialization altogether. And modern man is nothing if not obsessively techno-specialized. Which is kinda ironic in the gaming community, because fantasy is about reducing things to their most basic and primal elements in many ways, and yet there is that strain within the game that is heavily concerned with great minutia. Fantasy is about magic and scary creatures and the unknown, and fantasy gaming is about controlling the best math stats through your racial and power attributes. Fantasy is about encountering the unknown and magic mysteriously creating the impossible, and fantasy gaming is about knowing all your monster types in the Monster Manual and magic being as tightly controlled as if it were the province of an electrical engineer or an IT administrator. It's a weird juxtapositioning of contradictory concerns.) But I think it is safe to say that most of our ancestors would recognize monsters as being de facto elements of horror, whereas many of us see them as "combat obstacles." Familiarity often breeds a reorganization of what we think we are perceiving into a sort of prejudiced assumption concerning what we already are sure we know about.

However as a man who has been ambushed on occasion I can tell you without any fear of contradiction that situations like that, and the game is filled with them, are indeed horrific. If being ambushed by a monster or crushed to death while infiltrating a dangerous environment wouldn't really give you the willies then you aren't doing it right.

Then again when you are really in fear of your life and the life of your companions that invokes a certain kind of feeling of horror, while doing the same thing in your imagination at a table while eating corn ships, drinking beer, and cracking wise about the danger posed by the red-eyed goblin horde invokes a whole nuther set of feelings and responses.

Depending then on how you go about it a monster can be a manifestation of all that is weird and scary, or a monster can be the funny looking obstacle you gotta kill to get at the Ruby Rod of Rumplestilkskin.

So I think a lot of this is "worldview." I just don't think people's imaginations work nearly as well as they once did when it comes to associating emotional responses to potential outcomes. Especially where danger is concerned. We've got an explanation and an out for everything. We've seen too many movies where Spock gets reincarnated, and played in too many games where resurrection is just a potion or a spell away. It's hard to scare people who think of virtual reality death and killing in video and role play games as more fun but less scary than a roller-coaster ride.

Nearly all of my ancestors would have considered ghosts and goblins and monsters scary. Very scary.
However being used to them in game as a natural part of the background environment I might consider them just interesting tactical challenges.

Iffin though I had to fight a real monster in the real world, something like a Beowulf against Grendel then you can just bet your bottom dollar to a bag of doughnuts I'd go in really well prepared and scared to a fine pitch of sharpness. If I wasn't sacred then I wouldn't be very sharp and so I'd likely be the one to get sliced up and eaten. And if you've never seen anything eaten alive then belief me, it looks kinda scary on most occasions. And yeah, in real life you get used to things too. So that things that once spooked ya (like dismemberments and decapitations) are old hat and not that much to pay attention too. However there are still always situations you can walk into that if you aren't scared then that's just because you're a fool, or already dead. And I think that most modern people just lack the imagination for real danger, fear, and horror anymore. They don't face those kinda things enough for it to seem "real" to em, even in their own minds. But not all that long ago many of your ancestors faced that kinda thing constantly. So to them horror was not being spooked in a dark movie theatre by an imanagnary scene, it was the difference between being cautious and being dead. And I think to some extent the game is losing that sense of the wonder and reality of fear as rapidly as is modern society.

I will say this without any doubt in my own mind. The older versions of the game were a lot scarier than the present versions of the game. I can't say exactly why, though I have my own theories, but 3rd and 4th edition don't strike me as scary at all.
 
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Mallus

Legend
Adventurers in role-playing games aren't special because they are gifted, they are special because they are fools who have no regard for their own lives - else they'd do something far more sensible with their lives.
If this were true, the leveling system would look much, much different.

Also talking about the foolishness of adventurers, who should probably do something more sensible with their lives is, it itself, foolish talk. The game is about taking on the role of swords and sorcery protagonists, not medieval peasant farmers.
 


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