Hero of the Faith: Broken, or just Unbalanced and in need of meds? You decide.

Atanatotatos · Aug 17, 2009

If it's not that good, why do you want it so badly, since it's practically a copy of a previously existant feat on steroids?

And the problem is not "rangers". As cov said, it's just as good for any fighter, barbarian, or any other melee combatant who wants to KO a powerful enemy faster.
For example, Storm of Blades, 13 level barbarian encounter power, is not COMPLETELY broken (although it's certainly overpowered) simply because if you miss on one attack, the chain ends. If you roll twice the chances of landing the whole series goes up like crazy. It's a free reroll on every melee attack roll if you set it up right, guys. Think about it. Rerolls are NOT that easy to come by.

Tinwe · Aug 17, 2009

@Joenotcharles: I'm not really trying to argue the merits of paragon classes. You asked for an example of a better minmax MC feat for Rangers, so I supplied it.

Atanatotatos said:
If it's not that good, why do you want it so badly, since it's practically a copy of a previously existant feat on steroids?

I don't want it. Speaking as someone who plays a Ranger, I wouldn't take it even if it's admitted as it stands. I'm siding with KenHood here- if you think it's OP, email WotC. Take it easy on the nerfbat- if the feat is too strong, it'll get knocked down. In the meantime, 15 Wis is a steep price for a melee striker to pay.

Also, if you're going to point out Storm of Blades, it's only honest to note that you get 1 + Con mod attacks. It's not "keep hitting until you miss", as you seem to imply. Show me the Barbarian who can afford both a high Con and 15 Wis for the MC Avenger, and I'll show you a reason that 25-point buy is too high.

Edit: Oh, and speaking of Barbarians, here's the example of an encounter-long MC benefit that people were asking for earlier:

Berserker's Fury [Multiclass Barbarian]
Prerequisite: Str 13, Con 13
Benefit: You gain training in one skill from the barbarian’s class skills list.
Once per day as a free action, you can gain a +2 bonus to damage rolls until the end of the encounter.

Granted it's 1/day. It's still encounter-long.

renau1g · Aug 17, 2009

*sigh* my major beef with the feat is that it robs the Avenger of it's "it" factor. It'd be like getting sneak attack or raging with just one feat. That robs the other classes of their uniqueness, plus count in the one other feat to be able to transfer your oath and *boom* no need for avengers. Avengers rely on this to make up their DPR without it they suck, period, compared to other strikers.

renau1g · Aug 17, 2009

Tinwe said:
Edit: Oh, and speaking of Barbarians, here's the example of an encounter-long MC benefit that people were asking for earlier:

Granted it's 1/day. It's still encounter-long.

That is a big difference as is the +2 to damage, vs the (essentially) +5 to hit. If you combine the Barb one with a daily it does daily dmg +2. If you combine HoTF with a daily you up the expected damage by 25% or more (assuming a 50% hit rate, you bump it up to 75% and double your chances of a crit)... so you can see the comparison. 1/day get +2 damage, the other up your DPR by a minimum of 25%

Tinwe · Aug 17, 2009

renau1g said:
That is a big difference as is the +2 to damage, vs the (essentially) +5 to hit. If you combine the Barb one with a daily it does daily dmg +2. If you combine HoTF with a daily you up the expected damage by 25% or more (assuming a 50% hit rate, you bump it up to 75% and double your chances of a crit)... so you can see the comparison. 1/day get +2 damage, the other up your DPR by a minimum of 25%

It's +2 dmg to everything hit in 1 encounter. It allows target switching, which HotF does not. Not to substitute anecdote for evidence, but I cannot think of a game where I have played a striker, either in PbP or live, in which I have not switched targets at least once.

As I mentioned earlier, I find it amusing that everyone (not necessarily everyone here- it happened on other boards too) rushed to the Barb MC feat with the nerfbat when PHBII came out, proclaiming that every single striker would take it. They didn't. Now PHBII is old news, the Avenger MC feat is supposed to be the new flavor of the month, and it won't be.

I'll say, too- if a player wants to break the Avenger OoE mechanic, he goes Avenger MC Rogue / Daggermaster and swaps out his avenger powers. It's a good build, but even that doesn't keep up with the damage of other strikers. The Avenger MC feat is situationally very useful, but it's not gamebreaking.

Atanatotatos · Aug 17, 2009

Nope. Ren already stated why the two feats are not even comparable. Also, I don't really remember anyone complaining about that particular MC feat. I don't see why anyone would: it's a good feat only because it is universally useful, and opens a class with great powers, not because of its own strenght.
About storm of blows: Consider a +2 Str and Con or +2 Str and Wis race. At level 13 with 22pb you can have a reasonably built Rageblood with Str 21 Con 19 and Wis 15(or higher, if you want to neglect other stats). So you'll eventually have at least Con 24, I guess. While you might not see that as a problem because the levels are high, well, of course a low-level character cannot exploit things as much as a higher level one. But we're hoping to get there, eventually, right?
Also, you mention the half-elf Avenger-Rogue-Daggermaster. Well, keep in mind that it's totally unplayable at low levels, and we start there here (for now anyway).

Velmont · Aug 17, 2009

Another use: Wild Sorcerers could use there wild magic and choose between odd or even when both hit. Doing it for one or two rounds, that's fine, for a whole combat and start to chain Chaos Bolt on every enemy on the map (and suddenly failing to jump when the only creature left within 5 squares is an ally)... I also think there is a huge difference between 2 rounds (until the end of next turn) and end of encounter. Ok, a Wis 15 Sorcerer will be rare.

Just look at most effects from powers. Until the end of encounter are generally daily powers, not encounter powers.

That might be a possible fix. HoF could be a daily...

Kalidrev · Aug 17, 2009

Except that OoE only works with Melee Attacks, Vel. Otherwise, that would be one NASTY example.

Atanatotatos · Aug 17, 2009

It's possible via the Sorcerous blade channelling feat, right?

Velmont · Aug 17, 2009

Yeah, any ranged attack can become a melee attack through a dagger with a feat. Chaos Bolt is a ranged attack. But I don't think a sorcerer will like to spend half the combat next to an enemy to take advantage of that feat... well, who knows, might be if you work on such built.

Hero of the Faith: Broken, or just Unbalanced and in need of meds? You decide.

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