Demon Queens Enclave - Session Reports

thecasualoblivion said:

1. Read book 1 carefully to memorize the motivations and political scene if you want to run that. You need to have it down pat. Don't be too disappointed if your players get sick of dealing with Drow and decide that genocide is more palatable than politics though(thats what happened to us).

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This always makes me shake my head.

I do understand the Drow are kewl, and the reasons for more Drow modules popping up.

What I don't understand is why so many of these modules contain elaborate (or not so elaborate, I haven't checked DQE) instructions for diplomacy and alliances.

WTF? Everybody knows Drow are the least reliable most back-stabbing surface-hatin' kind of all. Why include all of that when few if any adventure parties will ever see it.

I mean, my last 3E campaign was in City of the Spider Queen. What a waste!

Our party contained both a Paladin and a (ranger) Elf. Of course we immediately switched over into genocide mode!

I guess I will never understand why they keep doing diplomacy-with-monsters adventures when these apparently always assume these adventures will be run by standard generic PC parties... which means surface dwellers, which means elves and dwarves that hate most pople from the Underdark, and which means humans who put their faith in gods decidedly different from the ones from below.

If these modules were geared towards special PCs, where you play other Drow, or I don't know, Troglodytes, then I could understand why the designer would bother with pages detailing the diplomacy and power struggles.

But a standard party of five allying with Drow? Nah.

*shrug*. My groups have typically taken a very mercenary approach, rather than a 'holier than thou' approach. That's just their play-style. If the hook has something material for them to gain they would willingly broach an alliance with Asmodeus himself. Of course after they have played both sides against the middle, then they happily switch to genocide mode. Geez, maybe they should be playing drow PCs afterall!

That being said, I think the hooks for this adventure need a bit of help if your party is on the higher moral ground. Maybe you need to play-up the "work with the lesser of two evils" side of things.

CapnZapp said:

But a standard party of five allying with Drow? Nah.

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As before, I'd really appreciate it if you'd READ THE MODULE before criticising it. There are some extremely good reasons for allying with the Drow in DQE - a new Exarch of Orcus is on the way and the Drow are currently the thing that's holding him back.

If the players refuse to help them, fine. They're wiped out, and an army of Undead Drow emerges from the Underdark to slaughter the living.

How's that for consequences?

Obviously, if you feel that, as a player, you wouldn't go along with this then that's your decision. But please stop insisting that it's bad adventure writing and that no-one will like it. This is completely not true.

I'm also asking you to stop threadcrapping here. I'm trying to have a discussion about how I'm running this module, with the players who are buying into playing it. You're coming in and saying you think it's a bad module - this isn't helping. If you want to air these views, would you mind forking the discussion off to a new thread and let me carry on in peace here?

Thanks.

On a happier note:

Rechan said:

Just a side note - this is a general tip, but a usual DM tactic.

When your Defender marks someone, or your Avenger designates an Oath, or whatnot - intentionally have the monster engage in the punishment behavior. Run from the avenger (if that's his build), attack someone while under the Divine Challenge.

This way, the ability sees the light of day, it lets the PC feel like they're contributing, and it puts it in the game (because if you never let it happen, then the ability never comes up).
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How I would do it would be to have her just lie to them. Say that the key to the portal is with the Drow Necromancer. And say "Oh and btw, a lot of our forces are being tied up in the Slave Rebellion - if you want reinforcements, that needs to be quelled."

This will send the PCs on the sidequest in her behest, and they won't learn that she lied to them until after they've done what she wanted.

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Two really useful bits of advice, and I'm sure the Paladin will get a chance to shine in the encounter. I'll make sure to have one of the Ghouls recoil from him in pain and get burned for it, just to hammer the point home.

I also love the idea of the Matron lying to them. Hah. You're right - it's a much more Drow way to go about things.

Rechan said:

When your Defender marks someone, or your Avenger designates an Oath, or whatnot - intentionally have the monster engage in the punishment behavior.

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Gotta disagree with this one. I don't think you should intentionally have the monster trigger conditions as a DM, especially when the monster is an intelligent foe (it's ok - even expected - to do so when the PCs are fighting less intelligent foes, or foes unconcerned about their survival however).

I think forcing opponents to trigger effects should be a reward for PCs who use good tactics. IME, there's nothing like players working together to put a monster in a bad position and to have it come off. To always give out freebies likes this would lessen the sense of accomplishment when good tactics pay off, and encourage the PCs to not worry about tactics.

That's my dissenting opinion, but YMMV and only you know which approach your players would prefer.

Mathew_Freeman said:

I'll make sure to have one of the Ghouls recoil from him in pain and get burned for it, just to hammer the point home.

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This, IMO, is a much better way to make the paladin player feel special - through good RP.

FWIW I am running Demon Queen's Enclave by PbP here:

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Its been running for about 4 months now, though that would only be a session or 2 in tabletop. The scenario has really held up well IMO. I added a few minor personal ties and hooks for the PCs at the start and it gave the whole scenario a new dimension.

They have talked their way through their first two major encounter with the Drow (albeit a Vampire) and are off to talk to the third main faction. In the meantime, they are now purusing a personal subplot which will muddy the waters even further.

I can see how a group of PCs may just treat it as a dungeon (it even says that it is a possibility in the book) but IMO the module has more than enough there for a DM and players who want more than just a straight dungeon crawl.

CapnZapp said:

But a standard party of five allying with Drow? Nah.

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You are limiting yourself and underestimating your players.

FWIW one of the nice things about DQE is that the Drow are authentically backstabbing and unreliable, yet the PCs still have to navigate them as there is a greater threat with the rising Exarch of Orcus. Its very much the enemy of my enemy is my friend and exactly the sort of stuff fantasy stories do well.

FWIW in my group's party:

- 1 PC is a half Drow/half Eladrin, who grew up in the Enclave.
- 1 PC is an Eladrin, who has a complex (and possibly romantic) relationship with an Eladrin spy posing as a Drow
- 2 PCs are motivated to stopping the Exarch of Orcus for different reasons (so they aren't focussed on mistrusting the Drow).

As such, a party of five allying with Drow? Yep!

Mathew_Freeman said:

I'm hoping to tie in some previous player experience by referencing Winterhaven, the Mages of Saruun and so on. Plus making sure that character backgrounds tie in to the adventure.

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My advice if you are running it as a one off is to build in some personal hooks. Several of the NPCs can be easily replaced. The Mage of Saruun ambassador is a good example where a personal subplot NPC may be suitable.

gribble said:

Gotta disagree with this one. I don't think you should intentionally have the monster trigger conditions as a DM, especially when the monster is an intelligent foe (it's ok - even expected - to do so when the PCs are fighting less intelligent foes, or foes unconcerned about their survival however).

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I'm not saying that an intelligent foe should always do it because that would give the player warm fuzzies.

But at the same time, an intelligent foe 1) may have different objectives in mind, and 2) may be willing to take it. A troll may not care about the paladin's divine challenge, if the wizard is the only one that can bring fire - the troll is going to do his damndest to kill that there wizard. Same with opportunity attacks and fleeing, or getting to softer targets, etc.

Besides. Just because the monster has an intelligence score above say, 6, does not mean that said monster is a tactician. Making tactical mistakes is a reasonable excuse.

Also, from the purely metagame side, it kills monsters faster and makes combat more exciting. So if you want to avoid Grind, any opportunity to take extra damage is always good.

Rechan said:

I'm not saying that an intelligent foe should always do it because that would give the player warm fuzzies.

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Cool. I'm also not saying an Intelligent foe should never do it - you gave some pretty good examples of situations where I would be fine with an intelligent foe triggering these things.

I guess I just fall into the school of making the PCs work a bit for their special abilities - not out of any attempt to be mean, just because IME it tends to be a lot more meaningful to players if everything isn't given to them on a plate.


Your initial post seemed like it was advocating the latter and I just wanted to show the other side of the coin to the OP as well - apologies if that wasn't your intent.

Skywalker said:

My advice if you are running it as a one off is to build in some personal hooks. Several of the NPCs can be easily replaced. The Mage of Saruun ambassador is a good example where a personal subplot NPC may be suitable.

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That's a good point. I'd been wondering how to draw him in as written - as you suggest I might ask my players for an NPC that they knew of old and through them in instead. I'll have a few weeks to think about this before it becomes relevant, happily.

I'm going to press them for some more background today. I was also thinking about taking the advice from the DMG2 and run a short vignette about some Drow guards being attacked by Undead, to really set the scene and explain just how unpleasant it would be to have a Ghoul chewing on your intestines...