demogorgon

given his position as first--arguably--among demon lords, i feel that demogorgon has not been given enough worshippers among the natural humanoid races. baphomet has the minotaurs. yeenoghu has the gnolls. gruumsh (a demon lord, in my view) has the orcs. so, what does the monster manual 2 say about demogorgon?

troglodytes worship him as a deity, and colonies of kuo-toas appeal to him for aid. this is both a problem and simply not enough. the trogs' principle patriarch is torog, so demogorgon is getting second scraps, at best. and the kuo-toa have been overtaken by, and now serve and worship, aberrant races, principally the aboleths. if any deific figure still were worshiped by the kuo-toa, it would be torog, who is most closely associated with both aberrations (in my view) and the underdark. that leaves demogorgon with no natural race over which he holds dominion. this just does not seem right for the "prince of demons".

so, what do we do about this? well, we give him a race of his own, just like yeenoghu and baphomet. gotta keep up with the joneses, you know. now, which race will it be? it should be a prominent race, so as to better reflect demogorgon's dominant position among demon lords. i still am not entirely certain which race is best, but i am thinking . . .

orcs. why? they are a prominent race. and gruumsh is, in my opinion, arguably expendable. his nature is a better fit as a demon lord than as a god. and as a demon lord, he is just yet another demon lord that is principally little more than a power that is thematically associated with a known race. so, give the orcs to demogorgon. and throw in an aquatic or amphibian race as well, to better play up demogorgon's amphibian nature (not the sahuagin. they have been taken, see my prior post for more on that), perhaps bullywugs ("bullywugs say they were created by the original primordials, not by the gods").

MaximumHavoc said:

this just does not seem right for the "prince of demons".

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Honestly, for most of the history of the game, that's part of the point - his following is small, but his personal power is large. He's prince because he's a badass, not because anyone likes him.

Umbran said:

Honestly, for most of the history of the game, that's part of the point - his following is small, but his personal power is large. He's prince because he's a badass, not because anyone likes him.

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perhaps so, but it just seems not to jive with the basic d&d notion that gods (and the like) derive much of their power from their influence on the planes (i.e., portfolios and worshipers).

if you suggesting that he is the standout exception, then okay, i guess. i was just trying to make him fit the larger model.

MaximumHavoc said:

perhaps so, but it just seems not to jive with the basic d&d notion that gods (and the like) derive much of their power from their influence on the planes (i.e., portfolios and worshipers).

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But that isn't really true at all. The core rules (of any edition, iirc) don't speak to the metaphysics involved. Many people play that way, but many people do not.

It has been noted that traditionally there are some demon lords who receive worship that can have their clocks cleaned by tougher pit fiends who do not receive worship. And in general the vast majority of demons and devils get no reverence at all from the mortal plane, but they can be quite potent. The correlation of worship to power is thus tenuous, at best. I personally think this connects well with having the demon lords statted out for killing in normal play, but not having the same done for gods.

Which is not to say that you cannot create whatever metaphysics you want for your game. But making it uniform rather removes sources of flavor, drama, and plot. If the basic issue for all of them is worship, then there is no real difference between demons and gods. Everything potent from another plane is a god - that's boring. Allowing some to have a different dynamic seems to me more interesting. YMMV, of course.

How about halflings? I do not recall them having a pantheon. They are all about gluttony (at least the Tolkien view). Sounds like a match made in the Abyss.

But you are also thinking the worship of the basic book setting. Beyond that setting there are different planes and worlds that he could be worshipped by all.

To me, Demogorgon puts the "out there" in outsider. He has scattered followers among many races, but the only races who revere him are inhuman. His plane is packed with fiendish animals, and his most loyal subjects are evil manta rays who suck life force. While Orcus represents despair, Demogorgon represents that leap into madness that becomes, "Must destroy!" He's so evil and bizarre that human beings, as a race, could not wholly embrace him without becoming something else. He is animal taint, moral liberation, the assassin of logic.

juboke said:

I believe 2e Monster Mythology mentions the Ixixachitl worship Demongorgon.

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i forgot about those guys. thanks for the reminder.

Hand of Evil said:

But you are also thinking the worship of the basic book setting. Beyond that setting there are different planes and worlds that he could be worshipped by all.

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all too true.

Umbran said:

But that isn't really true at all. The core rules (of any edition, iirc) don't speak to the metaphysics involved. Many people play that way, but many people do not.

It has been noted that traditionally there are some demon lords who receive worship that can have their clocks cleaned by tougher pit fiends who do not receive worship. And in general the vast majority of demons and devils get no reverence at all from the mortal plane, but they can be quite potent. The correlation of worship to power is thus tenuous, at best. I personally think this connects well with having the demon lords statted out for killing in normal play, but not having the same done for gods.

Which is not to say that you cannot create whatever metaphysics you want for your game. But making it uniform rather removes sources of flavor, drama, and plot. If the basic issue for all of them is worship, then there is no real difference between demons and gods. Everything potent from another plane is a god - that's boring. Allowing some to have a different dynamic seems to me more interesting. YMMV, of course.

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your argument is convincing. perhaps i am being to rigid.

just to nitpick, although the core rules do not speak to the metaphysics involved in this way, there are a plethora of d&d products that do. i just am too lazy to cite them right now.

Traditionally, worship is one path to power, but there are others, including immortal deeds, and some gods have divine ancestry or spring from some metaphysical origin.