More Dark Sun Goodness

Dragonhelm · Oct 25, 2009

JohnSnow said:
And, assuming they hold true to the past, there should be a new class introduced in the Dark Sun Player's Guide. Templar, maybe?

WotC has said it won't be doing a new class for Dark Sun, though it sounds as if there will be some nifty new options.

Now, can you make divine classes work in Athas? I suppose. But are they, strictly speaking, necessary for variety? Clearly not.

The inclusion of roles in the game really allows for setting customization. No longer is the cleric necessary as we have other leader types to fill that role. The cool part is that you can drop an entire power source if it doesn't fit your setting and be okay.

My hope is that, after seeing inclusive worlds like the Realms and Eberron, they will explore how excluding some elements from a setting can add to the flavor.

JohnSnow · Oct 25, 2009

Dragonhelm said:
WotC has said it won't be doing a new class for Dark Sun, though it sounds as if there will be some nifty new options.

The inclusion of roles in the game really allows for setting customization. No longer is the cleric necessary as we have other leader types to fill that role. The cool part is that you can drop an entire power source if it doesn't fit your setting and be okay.

My hope is that, after seeing inclusive worlds like the Realms and Eberron, they will explore how excluding some elements from a setting can add to the flavor.

Ah, no new class. Didn't realize that. I guess I missed that commentary.

On the subject of dropping an entire power source, (lead Dark Sun designer) Rodney "Moridin" Thompson said something similar on his blog about running a Dark Sun adventure. I wonder if we can take that as a more definitive "hint."

SSquirrel · Oct 25, 2009

Failed Saving Throw said:
Why is it so difficult for the Wizards design team to simply say: "Race X and Y and Class Z are not found in Dark Sun?"

B/c they did that in 2E and it didn't sell well. 4E is all about opening possibilities, not saying no.

Failed Saving Throw said:
Playing a campaign setting with a completely different spin on things was entirely the point of embracing Dark Sun. So I think people should go into it with the understanding that they have to check a lot of things at the door.

You can have a different spin on things and still allow races and classes. They have already said some of these races and such will be listed as pretty rare.

Failed Saving Throw said:
Playing dragonborn are okay if you actually modify the race to make them Dray. Along similar lines, I would allow goliaths by changing them to Half-Giants.

But devas, gnomes, tieflings, shifters, kalashtar, warforged (obviously), genasi and eladrin just don't belong in Dark Sun, sorry. It really screws with the flavor of the setting.

Someone talked in another DS thread about the idea of Warforged crafted from stone and bone and such. Would be a very DS spin on Warforged and IMO sounds pretty darn cool. People are also quick to bring up the tower that mutates things that come near it, so rare/unique race examples wandering out of the desert is par for the course.

Failed Saving Throw said:
And wizards should be divided into two specific classes - the defiler and the preserver.

Defilers and Preservers in 2E cast all the same spells, the only difference was if they caused environmental damage or not, plus the faster leveling for Defilers. 2 different classes are not needed. Bonus feat if you decide to be a Preserver that allows you to not destroy the environment. Or just say all Arcane casters inherently destroy the environment and you have to spend a feat to gain Preserving.

Wik · Oct 25, 2009

Defilers were only a seperate class in the original boxed set; the revision lumped them together, and made the choice of whether to defile or preserve up to the PC. (the more you defile, though, the harder it is to stop).

The revision also got rid of specialty wizards (they were there in the original setting).

I prefer the original, simpler take of the original set, in regards to 2e. But I think the revised setup would actually work better for fourth edition. Grant a flat bonus for defiling, and leave it at that - if you defile, you get a mechanical benefit, but also suffer in that your casting is more overt.

AdmundfortGeographer · Oct 25, 2009

Failed Saving Throw said:
But devas, gnomes, tieflings, shifters, kalashtar, warforged (obviously), genasi and eladrin just don't belong in Dark Sun, sorry. It really screws with the flavor of the setting.

Dwarves with beards screw with the flavor of the setting. Elves living in forests screw with the flavor of the setting.

And they aren't in Dark Sun despite those being the core representation of those races.

Your reflexive opposition seems to be based on those races being placed on Athas "as is". Why do you assume any of those races would be "as is"? Can you not imagine some interesting twist upon any of those races to make them fit? I can for every single one, except gnomes. Gnomes were exterminated and deserve to stay that way.

Here is some fluff I came up with to get deva to fit Athas.

As a consequence of the primordials victory, the Gray envelopes Athas cutting off the flow of souls to the realms of the gods. But there was one temple village devoted to a good god whose followers fought against the armies of the Champions of Rajaat; they were distraught at the thought of never achieving an afterlife but dissolving into nothingness. The followers were hopeful that their gods lack of communication doesn't mean their god is dead, but just cut off and will contact them again some day. Know that waiting for their god to return, every day their souls would dissolve into the Gray when they died, they perform an epic ritual that would defy the fate the Gray so that they would be there when their god returned.

As a consequence of the ritual, upon death, any soul a person from this temple village would avoid the Gray and instead reincarnate at a site holy to their faith. With the ritual in place, none of the affected followers can have children. With each reincarnation, memories of their past become dimmer and dimmer.

Calling themselves devas, today, their numbers had ever been few, and fewer yet have any remaining memory of where the original temple village was or if any devas still live there. After centuries of reincarnations, most devas consider themselves trapped in an unending cycle, cursed by memories of a naïve past that couldn't have imagined living in a world they are doomed to live in today. Many are resentful of their past, the decisions of those who doomed them to this eternal life, and resentful of those who are not cursed to relive life on Athas over and over.

While some devas have been broken and follow paths like defiling, seeking to destroy everything they can grasp, other devas have overcome the overwhelming burden of their memories and pursue paths of druidism to caretake the planet for future reincarnations.

Kobold Avenger · Oct 25, 2009

There's the Villichi, though they were introduced as a reclusive all-female race in Dark Sun, chances are they could be retconned into being the Devas.

And there's the humanoids of the Elemental Planes known as the Ruvkova, they sound a lot like Genasi to me.

Failed Saving Throw · Oct 27, 2009

Eric Anondson said:
Your reflexive opposition seems to be based on those races being placed on Athas "as is". Why do you assume any of those races would be "as is"? Can you not imagine some interesting twist upon any of those races to make them fit? I can for every single one, except gnomes. Gnomes were exterminated and deserve to stay that way.

Really, it's a lack of faith in WoTC's writers to do races and classes in a way that correctly presents the original atmosphere of the Athas. It's too easy to simply include all 4E races and classes in Dark Sun by just playing some kind of opposite game with them. That was never what Dark Sun was about. The races that were included were the way they were for a specific reason. Personally I think it's more interesting to have races that have been wiped out rather than reduce a few of them to "small pockets here and there that have changed a bit but still carry on." Why bother?

Mustrum_Ridcully · Oct 27, 2009

amysrevenge said:
I'm 99% on board with 4E Darksun.

My last lingering concern is that one of the central conceits isn't exactly as valid anymore. It's only a minor thing, but it's been bothering me for a while.

When the first version of DarkSun came out, mages were the kings of D&D. High level mages clearly outclassed all other beings, and wielded forces few could even comprehend. It made sense, then, to form a world partly around the concept that mages and arcanists could, as central, powerful figures in the world, drain it of most of its life force.

4E, however, has in many ways removed the primacy of Arcane power. High level wizards are no more, or less, powerful than other high level characters or monsters. Without the previous experience under our belts of earlier editions of D&D or Darksun, the choice of Arcanists as the source of these woes might seem random and arbitrary.

Basically, in the old days the answer to the question "Why didn't someone stop those mage guys from doing this?" was obvious - they simply didn't have the raw power to do it. Today, the answer to that question is more difficult to form without resorting to fiat.

I'm not super worried about this, just putting it out there.

All they need to be more powerful is to have a higher level. Even before 4E, a spellcaster was only really more powerful than non-spellcasters at higher levels.

CapnZapp · Oct 27, 2009

What Ridcully said.

How character X of level N is finally about equal in personal power to character Y also of level N regardless of the values of X and Y is a good thing.

Storminator · Oct 27, 2009

Eric Anondson said:
As a consequence of the primordials victory, the Gray envelopes Athas cutting off the flow of souls to the realms of the gods. But there was one temple village devoted to a good god whose followers fought against the armies of the Champions of Rajaat; they were distraught at the thought of never achieving an afterlife but dissolving into nothingness. The followers were hopeful that their gods lack of communication doesn't mean their god is dead, but just cut off and will contact them again some day. Know that waiting for their god to return, every day their souls would dissolve into the Gray when they died, they perform an epic ritual that would defy the fate the Gray so that they would be there when their god returned.

As a consequence of the ritual, upon death, any soul a person from this temple village would avoid the Gray and instead reincarnate at a site holy to their faith. With the ritual in place, none of the affected followers can have children. With each reincarnation, memories of their past become dimmer and dimmer.

Calling themselves devas, today, their numbers had ever been few, and fewer yet have any remaining memory of where the original temple village was or if any devas still live there. After centuries of reincarnations, most devas consider themselves trapped in an unending cycle, cursed by memories of a naïve past that couldn't have imagined living in a world they are doomed to live in today. Many are resentful of their past, the decisions of those who doomed them to this eternal life, and resentful of those who are not cursed to relive life on Athas over and over.

While some devas have been broken and follow paths like defiling, seeking to destroy everything they can grasp, other devas have overcome the overwhelming burden of their memories and pursue paths of druidism to caretake the planet for future reincarnations.

That's an awesome take on Devas. I love the bitterness. That's the essence of Dark Sun.

PS

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