Proposal: Allow Weapons used as implements to use Magic Powers.

Theroc · Oct 26, 2009

TwoHeadsBarking said:
*cough* LEB *cough*

It's the former. It's like a representative democracy, except the judges decide who becomes a judge.

It was late last night, and I got mixed up at which place I was in, as I have the tabs right next to one another... >.>

In any case, in my inexperienced opinion, I don't think it would be incredibly game breaking, and more of a flavor thing(except apparently the examples Velmont gives) I won't profess to be very informed as to 4th edition's balance mathmatics, but I'd say, "Give it a try, if stuff starts to break, change it." Fluff-wise, the change could always be attributed to something with the item weakening or changing and no longer affecting powers in a way no character IC can figure out.

Just my two coppers.

Maidhc O Casain · Oct 26, 2009

Hello, all! I feel a little strange chiming in here, as I know very little about 4E. However, in creating an Assassin character recently, I came across a bit of info in the Dragon article that may give a hint of the Wizard's intent on this subject:

IMPLEMENTS
Assassins focus their shadow energy through a ki focus, which is not an object they wield but a reservoir of magical power within themselves. When using a ki focus, an assassin taps into the power of shadow magic and channels it into both implement and weapon attacks.

You can imbue your ki focus with magic as if it were a physical implement. When you have a magic ki focus, you can add its enhancement bonus to the attack rolls and the damage rolls of assassin powers and assassin paragon path powers that have the implement keyword. You can also add its enhancement bonus to the attack rolls and the damage rolls of any weapon attack you make using a weapon with which you’re proficient.

You can also use a weapon with which you’re proficient as an implement. While wielding the weapon as an implement, the characteristics of the weapon you use—proficiency bonus, damage die, and weapon properties (such as defensive or high crit)—are irrelevant to your implement powers.

If you have a magic ki focus and wield a magic weapon, you choose before you use an attack power whether to draw on the magic of your ki focus or to employ the magic of your weapon. Your choice determines which enhancement bonus, critical hit effects, and magic item properties and powers you can apply to attacks with that power. You can’t, for example, use the enhancement bonus of your ki focus and the property of your magic weapon with the same attack power.

I'm not sure whether (or how) it actually bears on the argument but it seems like it does to me. The last paragraph is the one that seems most pertinent.

Kalidrev · Oct 26, 2009

Unfortunately, the Ki Focus entry has little to do with Weaplements other than the fact that the assassin uses them. It still doesn't clear up the question as to what parts of the magic weapon entry can be used when a Weaplement is used as an implement as opposed to when it is used as a weapon.

On a side note, I can't wait until they come out with some real Ki Focus items for the assassin. Hopefully that will come with the December Dragon article...

TwoHeadsBarking · Oct 26, 2009

I agree with stonegod's interpretation of the rules. However, I'm not sure if it would really be breaking things to go against the FAQ.

According to the Character Builder you can use a staff implement as a staff weapon as well. I mean, that's also true according to common sense, but that doesn't always apply in this game.

The problem with testing things out and changing them later is what if there's still a disagreement as to whether or not it's balanced? At least right now only theoretical characters are being affected by it.

elecgraystone · Oct 27, 2009

Ah good. I was going to suggest a proposal/vote. My stance was clear in the other thread, so I'll just comment on post here.

Velmont said:
- Sorcerers to ignore 5/10/15 to all his powers (he is not forced to take only power already with fire keyword).
- Dragonborn arcane character give him +1/+2/+3 to hit with all powers (because taking Draconic Spellcaster become a no brainer, and you can be quite sure his breath will be fire).
- Tiefling get +1 to hit/damage (Hellfire blood)

My counterpoint to this would be the winterfrost combo. Combat advantage and +5 damage all the time and it's allowed now.

stonegod said:
A staff is an implement already.

TwoHeadsBarking said:
According to the Character Builder you can use a staff implement as a staff weapon as well.

Staff is a weapon group like light blades and there is one weapon in that group; the quarterstaff. As such anyone that can use staves as implements could use a weapon staff as an implement.

And to counter stonegod, the staff is a weapon that can be used as an implement just like heavy blades can be used by swordmages. It seems odd to me I can crit with a weapon attack using a Staff of Power and you'd say it wouldn't work since it's from an implement. Personally as long as the wording still works it seems to me it should work.

Velmont · Oct 27, 2009

elecgraystone said:
My counterpoint to this would be the winterfrost combo. Combat advantage and +5 damage all the time and it's allowed now.

Great potential, but not automatic. The first hit isn't subject from the CA and Cold Vulnerability (unless it come from another source) and if you miss, you will lose those advantage. Also, you need to be paragon. But for a Rogue, I agree it is a welcoming way to place your sneak, and when you miss, you'll have other ways to get your CA anyway.

Theroc · Oct 27, 2009

TwoHeadsBarking said:
The problem with testing things out and changing them later is what if there's still a disagreement as to whether or not it's balanced? At least right now only theoretical characters are being affected by it.

Well, outside playtesting it extensively somewhere, it would seem to me the best method is to try it and see what happens, letting players know that relying on it or building a concept around it is ill-advised as the concept is being playtested. But then again, I'm the type of person more prone to let things fly unless I see they are obviously breaking things.

stonegod · Oct 27, 2009

Its much more difficult to put the genie back in the bottle in Living games: See the minotaur/bugbear/large-weapon issues in L4W, as an example. This is one reason I tend to be more conservative in Living games (while I still would rule exactly the same here for weaplements in my RL game, there have been somethings in the 3.5 LEB that I was fine banning that I allowed in my RL game).

Velmont · Oct 27, 2009

I agree on that point from stonegod, and as I stated on my first post, I would allow it in my RL game, but here, I'm less sure of it. And stonegod is true on that one. It is better to give a candy after a few month because WoTC clarify things to everyone rather than taking it back once it is eaten.

stonegod · Oct 27, 2009

elecgraystone said:
And to counter stonegod, the staff is a weapon that can be used as an implement just like heavy blades can be used by swordmages. It seems odd to me I can crit with a weapon attack using a Staff of Power and you'd say it wouldn't work since it's from an implement. Personally as long as the wording still works it seems to me it should work.

Actually, if I was consistent, I'd say way happens in undefined. The FAQ is clear on what happens if you use a weapon as an implement, but not the other way around. Its a problem tied to the staff. But yes, if I were to extend the way I ruled with weapons, I'd agree the Staff of Power's power could not be used for weapon-based attacks (though there is a wrinkle that the power itself does not mention its use as an implement or weapon).

Proposal: Allow Weapons used as implements to use Magic Powers.

Theroc

First Post

Maidhc O Casain

Na Bith Mo Riocht Tá!

Kalidrev

First Post

TwoHeadsBarking

First Post

elecgraystone

First Post

Velmont

First Post

Theroc

First Post

stonegod

Spawn of Khyber/LEB Judge

Velmont

First Post

stonegod

Spawn of Khyber/LEB Judge

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