WotC Layoffs - Rob Heinsoo, Logan Bonner, and Chris Sims

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Friadoc

Explorer
There's a pretty large disparity between a company letting people go as part of a regular fiscal cycle, or even just because they want to improve their bottom line, or heck, even just out of pure spite because of internal politics, and Nike child slave labour in third world countries.

Making a mountain out of a mole hill causes more problems than it solves. The answer to your question is that people should choose their battles with a little more wisdom and forethought. Some battles are worth fighting, and some are just petty and pointless.

You're right, there is a vast disparity between the two, which makes me glad that I didn't try and make that point. It'd have been a massive non-sequitur, too, given that there are actual laws against child labor and knowingly doing business with child labor law violators in the US.

But, choosing to remove my patronage from a company, because I disagree with various policies, be it design or bureaucracy, is fully reasonable. It's just as reasonable for them to design to someone else's tastes or hirer and fire completely upon their own choices, but to act like personal opinion isn't a battle worth waging, well more of a skirmish than a battle, is a rather banal thought.

People don't own any company their patronage, period. If we like someone, they get our business and if we don't, they don't. It's a pretty simple system, thus why companies like SJ Games, Paizo, Otherworld Creations, Malhavoc Press, Open Design/Kobold Quaterly and others get my business.
 

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Darrin Drader

Explorer
I am saying its a huge double standard.

You are posting using an ISP that probably laid people off. You continue to support that ISP though. Because it's simply not something you looked into or probably care a whole lot about.

You care about games though, so you punish more game designers by not supporting their company. Meanwhile, you reward your ISP because it's not something you care as much about.

It's totally backwards thinking. We should be supporting the companies who produce the things we like the most MORE now, not less. In this economy, our support is what allows for game designers to have a job at all.

I mean, what reaction do you think you could get if your "protest" were successful? Do you think a) they will never lay people off again, or b) they will lay more people off because now they are making even less money? The answer is b. You would be effecting the layoff of another employee whose work you probably like.

This kind of "protest" is one stage thinking. It doesn't contemplate the actual likely ramifications of your actions.

In general, I agree with you to a point. Much of this argument comes down to whether you consider D&D a product or a creative vehicle for the writer. It's true that any game designer can step into the shoes left vacant by the previous person and still turn out decent, playable work. On the other hand, I feel that there's a certain quality about Monte Cook's work, or Jeff Grubb's work, for example, that stands out and makes their products greater than the sum of their parts. Not having them writing D&D anymore is, in my opinion, a huge, unrecoverable, loss to D&D. In that sense, the decision to stop buying it is a bit like the decision to stop watching X-Files after Duchovny left (by the way, I continued to watch after Duchovny left). Another example relating back to the entertainment industry was my decision to boycott TNT after the screwjob they gave Joe Straczynsky on the Babylon 5 spinoff series Crusade. Does TNT still make good shows? I'd presume so. Do I watch it? No, I don't. Maybe I could apply the same standard to the syfy channel, because they've done some boneheaded things, but they tend to not cancel good shows often enough to keep me watching - at the very least, they tend to let shows have a few seasons before giving them the axe. I just don't feel that WotC values their creative talent enough, and at a certain point you have to decide whether or not you want to continue supporting corporate behavior that you don't like. Everyone is entitled to make whatever decision they think is best.
 

coyote6

Adventurer
Dang, that sucks. Again. (This thread is way too deja vu.) Good luck to all those laid off.

Having been laid off on 1/15/2001, I can testify that it does indeed suck mightily to get a pink slip just as the Christmas bills are rolling in. Of course, it sucks anytime.

One side-note...

Another example relating back to the entertainment industry was my decision to boycott TNT after the screwjob they gave Joe Straczynsky on the Babylon 5 spinoff series Crusade. Does TNT still make good shows? I'd presume so. Do I watch it? No, I don't.

FWIW, I think the executives have been turned over, so the folks that trashed Crusade are gone. And TNT does have some mighty fine shows (including one, Leverage, made by an ENWorlder; one of the funner shows on TV, IMO).
 

Asmor

First Post
That sucks.

Those are all names I recognize, too, so either the D&D staff is so small I know most of the people on it or WotC's laying off some of their best and most prolific contributors.

In any case, my feelings go out to those who may have lost their jobs.
 

Derulbaskul

Adventurer
My condolences to all who have been affected by this latest round of lay-offs.

Tracy Hickman once gave me some good advice regarding game design and writing in general. "Don't quit your day job." ;)

Honestly, I have never understood why people take up full-time employment in this micro-industry. There are too many people chasing too few jobs with even fewer employers and it's a declining micro-industry (the RPG business is too small to be considered an industry, IMO). As a designer you will never have the bargaining power you need to really carve out a niche for yourself that will keep you gainfully employed for life.

I hope those who have been retrenched are even more successful in the next stage of their lives. There is no better revenge than success! ;)
 

Darrin Drader

Explorer
My condolences to all who have been affected by this latest round of lay-offs.



Honestly, I have never understood why people take up full-time employment in this micro-industry. There are too many people chasing too few jobs with even fewer employers and it's a declining micro-industry (the RPG business is too small to be considered an industry, IMO). As a designer you will never have the bargaining power you need to really carve out a niche for yourself that will keep you gainfully employed for life.

I hope those who have been retrenched are even more successful in the next stage of their lives. There is no better revenge than success! ;)

While this is definitely good advice and very true, a number of former WotC game designers now work for video game studios, and they end up doing much the same thing as they did before.
 

Jack99

Adventurer
First of all, good luck to those who have been fired.

You can get a job writing for D&D without being a full-time employee with WotC....
Considering the state of the 3pp business today, what companies other than WotC are likely to hire fulltime? Goodman Games perhaps?

If they are using it as a stepping stone - that I could see. As long as they go into it knowing it's likely a temp job.
If the practice has been there for 10 years or so, can't we agree that most if not all knew the risks (or whatever you want to call them)?

That's a fair question and I don't mind answering it. First of all, my job was not in jeopardy, and it wasn't a Cartmanesque "Screw you guys, I'm going home!" In fact, I gave them a month notice and continued to do a good amount of freelance work for them after I left.

There were decisions that were made at the highest level that I disagreed with. Some of them affected me personally while others just annoyed me, but none of them were the types of things that would have ended my job or put me on the short list for termination. I'd delve into details, but they really aren't the types of things that need to be aired, and they weren't deal breakers.

The main issue for me was layoffs. I highly doubt that anyone working there has any sense of job security. In the four years I worked there, I didn't see any. At the time, my second child had just been born and the one thing that I needed was job security. The stress levels caused by the uncertainty were increasing and it was taking a toll on my health. Having worked for places that weren't so random and unpredictable when eliminating employees, I knew that there were more stable places to be, so I made arrangements to leave.

Ultimately my path led me back to school to finish up my undergrad degree (I'll have it in a couple weeks. Thanks in advance for your congratulations). The next question for me is whether to go to grad school, which I'm being urged to do by two of the three people who sit on the grad school admissions panel, or do something else. Right now I'm leaning towards more school, as academia tends to have the security that I'm looking for, not to mention the opportunity to shape the minds of the next generation of up and comers.

At any rate, when I left WotC, I was asked if I was certain that it was what I wanted to do by my supervisors, I gave them more than a month's notice, and I continued to do freelance work for them for a couple years after I left. My separation from the company was on fine terms. The reason that I'm critical of them today has to do with the fact that I've seen several more of my friends laid off, many of whom struggled to find quality employment after they left, and because of many of the decisions that were made regarding the rollout of 4E. I'm not going to rehash all of that as I'm sure that my posting history speaks for itself, but I feel that a number of those decisions had harmful effects on the industry at the time.

But, there's also evidence that the industry has recovered over this past year and I'm not particularly worried about the way things have realigned. In fact, it looks as though things are healthier now than they have been for several years. I haven't been this busy as a freelancer in about three years. In other words, the reason I speak up when WotC lays people off is because these are talented people, many of them have families, I consider these yearly cuts mostly unnecessary, and there is a human toll when this happens. It is possible to operate a company ethically and profitably, and while this year is particularly hard on most businesses, yesterday's layoffs are part of a well established and easy to track pattern with WotC. I have nothing but good wishes and respect for the few people I know who still work there.

I thought it was the creative change within the company that made you leave?
 

chikako

First Post
My perception is that Peter Adkison was never as layoff-happy as Hasbro-WotC is. Since my personal experience with WotC started after the Hasbro acquisition, and the fact that I happen to think Peter Adkison is a great human being, I admit that my perception could be inaccurate. I don't have the numbers from before the Hasbro layoffs, but I did see a significant downsizing of the company that was a direct result of the corporate merger while I worked there.

When one company is bought by another, the execs of the previous company often fool themselves into thinking they will be able to continue as a fully funded branch of the new company. That is very rare. More often than not, any duplicate functions are trimmed from the incoming entity before the ink is dry and anyone not associated with the the reason of the acquisition will suffer in the next six months or so. For example, when Adobe acquired Macromedia, anyone close to the success of Flash (and Dreamweaver) were treated as gold, whereas someone associated with a less important or non important product was treated terribly (or had the sense to leave first).

The one upside I see of a migration of talent is that talent can bolster competition in the market. A lot of awesome products in the RPG market nowadays are coming from companies started by ex-WOTC employees. In fact, when I look at what's on our shelf, I see no new Hasbro products. All the most interesting things Ive bought come from the other companies - ones like Green Ronin, Paizo, Pelgrane Press and Mongoose (and others).
 


Keefe the Thief

Adventurer
Condolences to all who were let go.

Man, these threads really get to me. The mass-appreciation and well-wishing of the community is nice, but there are a lot of knives coming out of pockets who had been sharpened long before the Christmas layoffs. Either way, this sucks.
 

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