Experiences with Weapons of Legacy

pawsplay said:

What do you mean?

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You have just stated that any power you gain past 4th level is irrelevant.

That if you have a concept for someone who can cast fireballs, because that's a power you gain at 5th level, it's not valid. Given that the general "sweet spot" for 3E is considered to be around 5th-13th level, that eliminates the best bit of the game.

Oops.

The simple fact is that 3e allows a great deal of mechanical flexibility as to how you built characters. With that flexibility came the possibility of getting it totally wrong - either characters that were tremendously underpowered, or characters that were tremendously overpowered (the latter normally a design fault somewhere). The system isn't always elegant, but it's there - and people use it.

The trouble with the UA Legendary Weapons and Scion classes is that it's not flexible. It works for a very small number of characters - basically those who have decided that their character will be defined by their weapon. An unfortunate thing about 3e is that most character advancement needs to be preplanned. So, Legendary Weapons work when the DM and player sit down at 1st level and say "this character will have a Legendary weapon".

Meanwhile, I could introduce a Legacy Item at any point in the campaign and the characters could decide to use it or not - their choice. The costs for the weapons were designed so that they applied to a very wide range of characters; the only time you needed to really house rule anything was when a new power source was introduced. In my case, I house ruled the penalties for an Incarnate character.

These legacy items didn't stop the PCs from pursuing regular prestige classes. In my game, we saw an Arcane Hierophant (druid/wizard), a Fochluchan Lyrist, and a Soulblade/Illumine Soul all using these items - character builds that would be impossible with the scion system.

The big question was whether the penalties for these items were too harsh; and that is a vexed question. In general, a 20th level legacy item is worth around 200,000 gp. You could have a staggered plan for paying for its abilities and disregard the penalties... but there are problems with that idea as well.

(Abilities gained from 5th-10th level for the Items are worth about 2,000 gp each level; from 11th-16th they're around 5000 gp each, from 17th-20th its about 35000 gp each).

Jeff Wilder said:

Total Market Value (note that this ignores the x2 modifier for slotless items and the x1.5 modifier for multiple abilities): 164,040 gp.

Cost to Craft: 82,020 gp, 6560 xp, and Craft Magic Arms and Armor.

Cost as Item of Legacy: 55,200 gp, -2 to attacks, -3 to saves, 14 HP.

The cost of the item is high, but it's not as ridiculous as people are making it sound. The biggest drawback, as someone has alluded to, is that this weapon simply isn't powerful enough for a 20th level character, and (as far as I can remember) there aren't any rules for how you independently improve a legacy item.

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WoL falls apart is if you have a crafter in your party. -2 to all attacks, -3 to saves and 14 HP isn't worth saving 27,000 gold.

MerricB said:

You have just stated that any power you gain past 4th level is irrelevant.

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I don't remember saying that, and I definitely don't see how that relates to liking 3e.

That if you have a concept for someone who can cast fireballs, because that's a power you gain at 5th level, it's not valid. Given that the general "sweet spot" for 3E is considered to be around 5th-13th level, that eliminates the best bit of the game.

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Okay, you got me. You can't do the concept of Fireball Guy before 5th level.

So let me try again. If you haven't fulfilled your basic archetype by 4th level, your concept is not very focused. Taking a prestige class, whether Scion or otherwise, is not going to weaken the foundational set of abilities you already possess. Scion, as with all prestige classes, offers an opportunity cost. "I need to get 11th level in X classes to fulfill my concept" is not a meaningful concept when there is a real possibility the character could die at 10th level and never be resurrected.

I have trouble wrapping my head around the idea that you need to be level 13 (for example) in order to fulfill your concept, when you are playing the character up through 12th level to get there. Since WoL basically reduces a character's abilities, it's as if to say: "My concept requires that I have the capabilities of a 13th level character who has been nerfed to about about 11th level."

"I am playing a character that does not fulfill its own concept until several levels later," just seems suspect. The concept of a character who has already achieved does not seem to mess with the concept of a game that focuses on achievement.

ehren37 said:

WoL falls apart is if you have a crafter in your party. -2 to all attacks, -3 to saves and 14 HP isn't worth saving 27,000 gold.

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Quite possibly. Of course, it's highly doubtful that a crafter could create one item that did everything that an Item of Legacy did - certainly not for the cost - but let's leave that aside.

The major drawback with the Weapons of Legacy book is that the costs are perceived to be too high. That they worked for the two campaigns that I used them in can - to some extent - be attributed to the shocking mathematics of high level 3E when the penalties really began to kick in. When you need a 2 to hit, a -2 to hit isn't so big a deal.

The more fundamental problem with Items of Legacy comes from the use of gold piece value as a method of balancing treasure...

Cheers!

MerricB said:

When you need a 2 to hit, a -2 to hit isn't so big a deal.

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That depends on how you look at it: You're tripling the number of times you'll miss.

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, WoLs don't add up: When you run the numbers, you discover that in the most optimized WoLs the discounted price is paid for on a 1-to-1 basis by the permanent penalties you accept for using the item. That looks balanced at first glance, but it's actually a terrible deal because you continue to suffer those permanent penalties even if you're not using the WoL.

(For less optimized WoLs, the math is even worse: You're now paying more in penalties than you're saving in gold.)

You're ALWAYS better off not paying the WoL penalties and simply using a "less" powerful item (which is, actually, exactly as powerful or possibly even more powerful once you factor in the cost of the penalties).

The entire WoL system is fundamentally busted. Which doesn't mean it's impossible to use (as long as you don't fetishize balance), but it does mean it's very poorly designed.

Particularly since it's so trivial to design it properly.

Bottom line: why would you want a +4 sword that grants +3 to saves but costs you an untyped -2 to hit and -1 to saves, when you could just have a +2 sword that grants +1 to saves?

pawsplay said:

Bottom line: why would you want a +4 sword that grants +3 to saves but costs you an untyped -2 to hit and -1 to saves, when you could just have a +2 sword that grants +1 to saves?

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That was exactly my thought when I read one of the examples...

Though at least in 3.0 it was a difference whether you had a +4 or a +3 weapon... But Weapons of Legacy is 3.5, right?

ehren37 said:

WoL falls apart is if you have a crafter in your party. -2 to all attacks, -3 to saves and 14 HP isn't worth saving 27,000 gold.

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If you have a crafter in your party, he or she is willing to pay 6000+ XP, and you have 165 days of downtime ... I fully agree.

pawsplay said:

bottom line: Why would you want a +4 sword that grants +3 to saves but costs you an untyped -2 to hit and -1 to saves, when you could just have a +2 sword that grants +1 to saves?

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qft

Conversely, why would you want a +4 sword if you couldn't take any of the prestige classes you wanted and you could only play a Wizard, Fighter or Sorcerer at close to full effectiveness?

Weapons of Legacy suffers from the release of the Magic Item Compendium: a lot of the ideas it pioneered in the core system (putting a lot of bonuses on one item) were made core there.

A +5 sword that gave +6 to Strength, +4 to Con and other assorted bonuses was pretty nifty when it was released. A pity that the penalties were higher than they should have been.

Big question: who here has used the Scion/Legendary Weapon system in play? I used the Weapons of Legacy system in two campaigns that went from 1st to 16th level.

Cheers!