What is OSR about?

TerraDave · Mar 30, 2010

rogueattorney said:
I think one of the things that people are missing with regard to aspects of the OSR is that there is a real "DIY" or "indie" strain to it. It has largely been about hobbyists publishing for other hobbyists with a decent amount of skepticism towards "professional" designers and any centralization of the movement.

I think this indie strain came from about a half decade of pre-3e fans hoping that the professionals would "do it right" and then being repeatedly disappointed with the effort - from 3e to Hackmaster to Necromancer to C&C - and deciding to just do it themselves. I actually think there's a pretty big divide in the pre-3e D&D community, albeit a subtle one, between those who still yearn for "official recognition" and those who've said "F--- it, we can do it better than they would anyway."

Thus, regarding what some others had posited abot a hypothetical 4e that was closer in spirit to 1e... Really, by 2008, that ship had already sailed as far as any of the producers of OSR materials were concerned. What WotC or really any mainstream producer of D&D-ish materials was doing at that point was so far off the radar, they were going to be putting out their own materials no matter what, audience or no.

Now, what 4e has done is it's put the wind in the sails in terms of audience for the OSR products. Those fed up with 3e but disappointed in 4e had one more place to look. So, while the OSR'ers had been there for 3 or 4 years already producing tons of materials (one example: 30 adventure modules for OSRIC alone had come out prior to 4e being published), a lot of people only discovered them when they decided to see what else was out there after 4e came out.

That is probably the best summary so far.

But, the OSR blogosphere is in part about remembering, touching back to the past, reviving the good old days, thinking what things would have been like if such and such did not happen, shedding the baggage that has come from following every new gaming trend...

I think there is a word for all this...

Nikosandros · Mar 30, 2010

Hobo said:
I haven't actually noticed if its literally the same people who get offended by the nostalgia claim and are most dogmatic about the game at the same time, but I frequently suspect that it is.

Well, I think that in a few circumstances the reactions against the nostalgia claim have merit. I mean, as others have posted, it is sometimes used in the context of old games are bad, you like them only because of nostalgia. But asides from that, I agree that nostalgia isn't a bad thing.

Hobo said:
For a lot of OSR fans, no doubt, it's just about playing a game that they enjoy and hey! It's exciting that there's this wave of support and commonality on the internet that they can turn to to improve their games.

Indeed, that's how it is for me. I love AD&D and I enjoy playing it. I make no claims about its superiority and I play it alongside other games such as 4e, Pathfinder and non-D&D games.

Hobo said:
There's a strong underlying subtext among several OSR blogs and posters and whatnot though, that's something altogether different. Like you say, they see anything after 1983 as some kind of heresy. To them, the OSR is about faithfully trying to recreate the environment and experience that Gygax or Arneson had. Which... I guess more power to them too, and all, but it'd be nice if they could do that without the dogmatic and badwrongfun approach.

This subtext certainly exists and I agree completely that we really don't need the ridiculous dogmatic approach.

Hobo said:
And trying to faithfully recreate a mid-70s gaming experience certainly is a nostalgic approach. I don't know how it can be called anything else.

Actually, a faithful recreation can be an intriguing proposition, if it is divorced from the dogmatism. I have never tried it myself (I much prefer my games to be very "contaminated"), but I can see the charm in it. OTOH, as you said, the dogmatism is almost always present in such endeavors.

The Shaman · Mar 30, 2010

Hobo said:
And trying to faithfully recreate a mid-70s gaming experience certainly is a nostalgic approach. I don't know how it can be called anything else.

Perhaps because it's not "a yearning for the past in idealized form."

It's New Coke and Old Coke.* I liked Old Coke. I tried New Coke. I didn't care for New Coke. I returned to drinking Old Coke.

That's not nostalgia for Old Coke. It's liking Old Coke better.

Is that really so hard to grasp?

* This is an analogy. I'm well aware that Classic Coke was not the same forumlation as Coke prior to the launch of New Coke. Please put your pedant stick away; that horse is dead and turned into a bottle of Elmer's already.

Desdichado · Mar 30, 2010

The Shaman said:
Perhaps because it's not "a yearning for the past in idealized form."

It's New Coke and Old Coke.* I liked Old Coke. I tried New Coke. I didn't care for New Coke. I returned to drinking Old Coke.

That's not nostalgia for Old Coke. It's liking Old Coke better.

Is that really so hard to grasp?

It's perfectly easy to grasp, but that also doesn't describe the subset of bloggers/posters that I'm talking about.

It also doesn't explain why, when someone says, "dude, you're just nostalgic for Coke Classic!" that anyone's response to that would be to break out in some kind of Hulk-like rage.

Raven Crowking · Mar 30, 2010

Hobo said:
It's perfectly easy to grasp, but that also doesn't describe the subset of bloggers/posters that I'm talking about.

Quite likely not. I am sure that there is an element of nostalgia in those blogs. But, as one would not judge the gaming population by an EN World poll......

It also doesn't explain why, when someone says, "dude, you're just nostalgic for Coke Classic!" that anyone's response to that would be to break out in some kind of Hulk-like rage.

I get that you are exaggerating for comedic effect, but.....the same thing happens when a comment is made off-hand that might imply that certain current rulesets are less than perfect.

Let's face it, years of defending their interest in gaming has made some gamers....let's say, touchy....about their hobby.

RC

M.L. Martin · Mar 30, 2010

TerraDave said:
Glad someone noticed.

Then you are probably not old-school enough for the OSR.

Anyone else think that there's a "Lost School" covering the late 1E/most of 2E/later BECMI material, with Elmore/Caldwell/Easley art (and others like Stephen Fabian, who's criminally underappreciated), more setting- and story-focused gaming, and a less nasty, brutish, swords & sorcery feel, that sort of gets lost amid the OSR, the 3E/Pathfinder, and the 4E groups? Or is it just me?

Reynard · Mar 30, 2010

Matthew L. Martin said:
Anyone else think that there's a "Lost School" covering the late 1E/most of 2E/later BECMI material, with Elmore/Caldwell/Easley art (and others like Stephen Fabian, who's criminally underappreciated), more setting- and story-focused gaming, and a less nasty, brutish, swords & sorcery feel, that sort of gets lost amid the OSR, the 3E/Pathfinder, and the 4E groups? Or is it just me?

I don't think you are alone at all. i would guess a LOT of us got our start in the mid to late 80s, when BECMI and 2E *were* D&D. It so happens that I "discovered" AD&D 1E later and happened to prefer that style of play, but I am solidly a product of 80s TSR games.

The Shaman · Mar 30, 2010

Hobo said:
It's perfectly easy to grasp, but that also doesn't describe the subset of bloggers/posters that I'm talking about.

It also doesn't explain why, when someone says, "dude, you're just nostalgic for Coke Classic!" that anyone's response to that would be to break out in some kind of Hulk-like rage.

Exaggerate much?

Oh, that's right, it those other guys who are so dogmatic all the time. Not you.

Geoffrey · Mar 30, 2010

I like what Robert Conley says: "To me the Old School Renaissance is not about playing a particular set of rules in a particular way, the dungeon crawl. It about going back to the roots of our hobby and see what we could do differently. What avenues were not explored because of the commercial and personal interests of the game designers of the time."

Two of the OSR products that try to do that are:

1. my own Supplement V: CARCOSA, which gives a dark and weird science-fantasy spin to the 1974 Dungeons & Dragons game
Geoffrey McKinney's CARCOSA

2. James Raggi's Random Esoteric Creature Generator, which argues for dropping pretty much all traditional D&D monsters and replacing them with unique critters nobody has ever seen before:
Goodman Games

Desdichado · Mar 30, 2010

The Shaman said:
Exaggerate much?

Oh, that's right, it those other guys who are so dogmatic all the time. Not you.

Not really. The dogmatism may not exactly be running rampant through the OSR, but it's prevalent enough that it's very difficult to miss.

If you want to deny that there's any such dogmatism, go ahead. I'll just continue to have interesing the conversation I was having with Nikosandros and others who do recognize it, before you showed up.