knowing you're marked

sammy · Mar 28, 2010

How does a creature know it has been subjected to a "mark"?

I know the Paladin "Challenge" is a magical compulsion, but what about other marks (fighter, warden, etc).

I would also like where in the rules it is written so I could read it.

Thanks in advance,

Sammy

Gruns · Mar 28, 2010

Unfortunately I don't have my PHB with me, but I don't recall any mention of HOW a creature knows it's marked, just that it knows. It also knows the consequences of said mark and anything that might happen if they ignore the mark (Combat challenge, Divine Challenge, etc). This is a bit ambiguous, though. There are some people that read the text in the PHB that says creatures know of the consequences(or whatever the exact wording is) to mean they know EVERTHING, and some that read it to mean that the creatures know what Marked does, but don't know about Combat/Divine Challenge until they face it a time or two.
I tend to go by the "they know everything" interpretation as it seems to be a little more RAW/RAI to me, and I figure monsters are experienced enough to know that a big guy in a set of heavy armor is a good fighter and will smack me in the face if I don't focus my attention on him entirely. And then again, some monsters know this but ignore it anyway.
Later!
Gruns

brehobit · Mar 28, 2010

I'm in the camp that they know they are marked, and for how long, but don't know about other powers that can trigger due to the marked state. (Just as they don't know that the ranger has an immediate interrupt that he can use when they attack or the wizard can cast shield as an interrupt.) How they know is harder, but there you go, welcome to 4e

DracoSuave · Mar 28, 2010

Gruns said:
Unfortunately I don't have my PHB with me, but I don't recall any mention of HOW a creature knows it's marked, just that it knows. It also knows the consequences of said mark and anything that might happen if they ignore the mark (Combat challenge, Divine Challenge, etc). This is a bit ambiguous, though. There are some people that read the text in the PHB that says creatures know of the consequences(or whatever the exact wording is) to mean they know EVERTHING, and some that read it to mean that the creatures know what Marked does, but don't know about Combat/Divine Challenge until they face it a time or two.
I tend to go by the "they know everything" interpretation as it seems to be a little more RAW/RAI to me, and I figure monsters are experienced enough to know that a big guy in a set of heavy armor is a good fighter and will smack me in the face if I don't focus my attention on him entirely. And then again, some monsters know this but ignore it anyway.
Later!
Gruns

Creatures DO know every effect on them. The DC and Aegis powers are mark + other effect. Monsters know about the mark, and they know about the other effect.

Other defenders' marks will not be automatically known, but a monster could make a knowledge check to see if he knows of their fighting style or not and whether continual harassment is a part of the package.

I just flavor each mark according to the class:

The Paladin gives a sense that the divine being will be cross if you don't deal with the Paladin.
The Fighter is constantly harassing and distracting the foe, not allowing the enemy a moment to turn his attention to other individuals, lest he get stabbed.
The Swordmage is opening small portals that cause blows to go awry unless the enemy deals with him... and if the enemy doesn't, those portals could either lessen the blow, teleport the enemy, or the swordmage.
The Warden is using magics of the earth and nature to prevent the enemy from getting too far and slowing them from attacking as effectively.
The Battlemind IS IN YOUR BRAIN.

The Weregamer · Mar 28, 2010

The magicky-type mark effects seem easy to distinguish, no different than having any other spell or effect placed on you. The tricky one in terms of narrative is the fighter. There I see it as less of the enemy thinking "Oh no, I am Marked" as it is him going "Wow, this fighter in on my ass and if I try to get away he will

my

up."

Amaroq · Mar 28, 2010

The RAW seems pretty unambiguous to me:

PHB p57 said:
Whenever you affect a creature with a power, that creature knows exactly what you’ve done to it and what conditions you’ve imposed. For example, when a paladin uses divine challenge against an enemy, the enemy knows that it has been marked and that it will therefore take a penalty to attack rolls and some damage if it attacks anyone aside from the paladin.

frankthedm · Mar 28, 2010

Amaroq said:
The RAW seems pretty unambiguous to me:

Some people will try to read that as only applying to abilities written up as "Power entries" even though it should be fairly evident there are not supposed to be "Gotcha" abilities in 4E.

abyssaldeath · Mar 28, 2010

Plus, if the creature doesn't know it is marked then the condition isn't really doing it's job. The whole point of the condition is to entice them to attack you. Doesn't really do that if they don't know that they are going to have an easier time attacking you as opposed to you buddies.

Gruns · Mar 28, 2010

Amaroq said:
The RAW seems pretty unambiguous to me:
Quote:
Originally Posted by PHB p57
Whenever you affect a creature with a power, that creature knows exactly what you’ve done to it and what conditions you’ve imposed. For example, when a paladin uses divine challenge against an enemy, the enemy knows that it has been marked and that it will therefore take a penalty to attack rolls and some damage if it attacks anyone aside from the paladin.

So does the creature that was Marked by a Fighter know the consequences of Combat Challenge? Since the creature isn't really ever under the efect of Combat Challenge, he shoudn't know... but it can be ruled either way. By RAW I'd have to say no, altough I rule that they do. Most of the time, anyway.

Gruns

Amaroq · Mar 29, 2010

Gruns, yeah that is where it gets a little ambiguous; I was posting the quote mostly for the OP, who'd asked for the page number, etc.

Regarding the fighter's mark:

- Arguing for the monster, you could say its just like the paladin's sanction, and covered by the same quote on p57.

- Arguing for the player, you could say that it isn't part of the condition, its a class power/immediate interrupt.

Personally, I like my players to feel like their characters are awesome, and that actually argues for the monsters not knowing .. that way, they trip the character's class feature fairly frequently, and get zinged by it; the player of the defender feels like they're "doing their job", the monster is attacking with minuses, and the defender gets to do a bit of extra damage or coolness, depending on the class feature.

Of course, a thinking creature, once bitten, is likely to adjust its tactics .. a recurring major bad guy with a long life is likely to have met a PC before .. and unthinking constructs, undead, and animals may never adapt to it.