Pathfinder 1E Disenchanted with Pathfinder

Now I realize a lot of people who post in this forum probably love Pathfinder, but please understand I am not trying to start a flame war.

Pathfinder is out. People have been playing it a little while and it seems like Paizo is running strong. I'm happy for them. I really am. Erik Mona and the whole crew there have given me loads of enjoyment over the years with all sorts of products.

I have been following the Pathfinder project since they did the open Alpha release. Being a huge fan of Paizo, I converted my D&D 3.5 game and we incorporated the changes into our game with each release. I regularly visited the Paizo message boards to post my comments and exchange ideas on all manner of rules. My group updated when they released the Beta and I even bought a print copy of the Beta rules (partly so I wouldn't have to keep printing stuff myself) and continued to keep up with the changes online. Then they released the final version of the game, after much long waiting and anticipation. I didn't buy it.

Oh, I went to my FLGS to check it out. Take a look at what, if any, final changes they made to the Beta. See if there were any interesting nuggets that might make it worth adding to my library as a reference, even if I didn't plan to adopt the rules completely. It was beautiful. The art was edgy. It was well-put together. And it seemed to be a bargain at $50 when D&D 4e was well over twice that for the three core rulebooks alone. But I couldn't get myself to buy it.

Here is my line of thought regarding Pathfinder. By the end of the process, a lot of it just seemed unnecessary. They started out saying they were going to continue 3.5 by making it more exciting and fixing the niggling little problems that hadn't been addressed since 2003. I allowed my love of Paizo products to color my impressions of the system all the way up to release, but by the end of the journey I had to admit that it didn't seem like they had fixed much of anything. And their idea of making the game more exciting seemed to be to add a bunch of features to every class (even the ones that worked just fine before). My players were frustrated with it by the end because there just seemed to be too many things going on, and I agreed with them.

So I put Pathfinder back on the shelf, and realized my torrid love affair with Paizo was probably at an end. I would still buy some of their system-neutral products from time to time of course, like map packs, maybe even adventures I could convert to other systems. But it would never be the same.

I think at the end of the day I realized that just because the people at Paizo are really good at one thing (stories; their writers are some of the most talented people I've ever seen and their adventures have plots that continue to amaze me) doesn't mean that they are good at all things. When it comes to rules, well, I just don't ascribe to the mantra that more is better.

Maybe I am off-base because it seems a lot of people are enjoying Pathfinder, and I'm happy for them. But I don't think it is the game for me.

I think what I am looking for is someone to explain to me why I'm wrong, because I feel a little jaded after the whole experience. The Pathfinder book is really pretty and I want a reason to add it to my collection, but I just can't seem to find a good one.

airwalkrr said:

Maybe I am off-base because it seems a lot of people are enjoying Pathfinder, and I'm happy for them. But I don't think it is the game for me.

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You don't strike me as 'off-base', fwiw. Tastes and requirements differ, 's all.

I think what I am looking for is someone to explain to me why I'm wrong, because I feel a little jaded after the whole experience. The Pathfinder book is really pretty and I want a reason to add it to my collection, but I just can't seem to find a good one.

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You're not wrong. Sorry, I know, that's not what you (apparently!) want to hear.

Really, it is evolution, not revolution. If you really like 3.5, the chances are, 3.PF isn't going to suck. Otherwise. . .

Personally, I think they did fix quite a few things. And the classes (and races) are IMO a lot better. Then there's CMB/CMD, the way skills work, and other rather neat things.

Is it a perfect system though? Hell, no. Never seen such a beast.

Aus_Snow said:

Personally, I think they did fix quite a few things. And the classes (and races) are IMO a lot better. Then there's CMB/CMD, the way skills work, and other rather neat things.

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CMB/CMD, something I thought was a really great idea when they first introduced it. I was never one who complained grapple was clunky, but then I thought unifying the combat maneuvers under a single mechanic was a good idea. That was until my group dropped pf and we went back to 3.5. Trip, bull rush, grapple, overrun, all of them are actually pretty simple when you just read them. I actually did that with my group one night. I said "We are going to sit down for 15 minutes and I am going to read and explain this nebulous little section of the PH." We did, and we really haven't had any problems since. Seems the problem was, no one had ever bothered consulting these sections until they needed them, and when they did need them, they just wanted to get it over with so they didn't pay close attention.

Skills. Well, I was just unhappy with the way it turned out. I didn't like the way you could just put a point in everything and get a big bonus. I still don't think the 3.5 skill system is perfect, but I'm not sure what needs to be done to fix it. Whatever it is, pf didn't do it for me.

Those are just some examples. Since you brought them up it just reminded me how unsatisfied I was with the final product.

Chances are I will still pay attention to pf. I'm just not sure I'll ever buy it.

its good not to buy until your sure

our group bought about 5 PHB of another cetrain 'edition'. they where all sold or left to gather dust very quickly. Never believing hype / getting to exicted about shiny things is a wise move.

can you get into someone elses game and try it?

was a bit reluctant myself to buy PF. did i need another D&D?

we just started the Kingmaker AP this week, and its going great.

I did try to play a Pathfinder AP online. I quit after the first adventure because I just wasn't happy with it, although a lot of things could be to blame for that.

And I'm afraid no one in my group wants to touch the pf books after our experience with it. If I get the chance to join a tabletop group around here and I'm not doing anything else, I wouldn't be averse to it. But I would have to probably be not in any games and feeling the itch. I'm not in that boat right now so it may be a while before I play pf, if ever.

Inflating one's expectations almost always leads to disappointment. Paizo crew delivered precisely the product they promised:
- backward compatible with 3.5 (so no revolution)
- fixed and improved where possible

Also, for those who prefer try-before-you buy, there is a very comprehensive and much more user friendly Pathfinder PRD site and 10$ PDF version of corebook.

Finally, the extensive beta testing showed what changes were in the making (free PDFs for Alpha and Beta rulesets).


In other words, Paizo crew were as forthcoming as possible. Your disappointment indicates that there was something you were not aware of.
I don't want to slam you down, not too much anyway, yet some reality check is in order.


Regards,
Ruemere

ruemere said:

Inflating one's expectations almost always leads to disappointment. Paizo crew delivered precisely the product they promised:
- backward compatible with 3.5 (so no revolution)
- fixed and improved where possible

Also, for those who prefer try-before-you buy, there is a very comprehensive and much more user friendly Pathfinder PRD site and 10$ PDF version of corebook.

Finally, the extensive beta testing showed what changes were in the making (free PDFs for Alpha and Beta rulesets).


In other words, Paizo crew were as forthcoming as possible. Your disappointment indicates that there was something you were not aware of.
I don't want to slam you down, not too much anyway, yet some reality check is in order.


Regards,
Ruemere

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+1 to the above. I can appreciate not wanting to spend $50 without being sure it's for you. However, I can think of no other RPG company that showed as much insight into the development process or made free or very affordable ($10 PDF) options available.

As others have said, if you like 3.5, you're likely to like Pathfinder. I also agree it's an evolution of 3.5 - and a very good one - rather than a replacement product.

Additionally, there is Trailblazer. Trailblazer can be used with PF & 3.5 and addresses more "fixes" as that was its design goal.

If neither 3.5, PF, nor Trailblazer do it for you, then I'd say your tastes have brought you to the point where it's time to look at other RPGs.

As for "ending your affair" with Paizo, forgive me, but I think you're being incredibly short-sighted. Assuming you still play 3.5, PF remains largely compatible per its design goal. There is a tremendous amount of quality RPG product coming out of Paizo. If Golarion or the PF APs aren't your thing, there are still a lot of titles in the module line and PF Chronicles which can be adapted to 3.5 or any other FRPG.

Ultimately, it's your buck and your game. If you're really that torn up about PF, see if you can borrow someone's book or buy the PDF version or check out Trailblazer. If none of those suggestions are viable, then I think your mind's already made up. Hopefully the responses you've received here can help you determine if further investigation makes sense. If not, happy gaming with your new system of choice.

I think what I am looking for is someone to explain to me why I'm wrong, because I feel a little jaded after the whole experience. The Pathfinder book is really pretty and I want a reason to add it to my collection, but I just can't seem to find a good one.

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I pretty much have the same opinion on some counts. The books are pretty. I like the company, and go out of my way to buy stuff from them if I can. But the bottom line is, they made some good changes and some bad ones and I don't like all of them. I've never bought the book; I just copied what I like off the prd as houserules for my 3.X game and that's that. In other words, I don't think you are wrong.

If you and your group, don't like it and decided to switch back to 3.5, more power too you. You shouldn't try to force yourself and others to play a game you don't like. I really like Pathfinder even though I haven't gotten to play it as much as I'd like to, but I would play in a 3.5 game in a heartbeat if I had the chance and it fit in my schedule.

airwalkrr said:

Maybe I am off-base because it seems a lot of people are enjoying Pathfinder, and I'm happy for them. But I don't think it is the game for me.

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You're never off-base with your own tastes. One of the players in my regular group also thinks that PF is a bit too fussy with subsystems. Me? I like them. But then, I think they raise the value of the base classes and he likes multiclassing and designing prestige classes and so doesn't feel the same about raising the base class values.

You can be wrong about facts and things like that, but you really can't be wrong about your feelings and other subjective impressions and opinions.