Pathfinder 1E Disenchanted with Pathfinder
Renfield
First Post
I don't think you're off base. Sometimes people just don't click with something. I personally like the Combat Maneuver system they created and recognize that the old system wasn't nearly as complicated as people thought if you just took a moment to read the rules. I just liked how the new stuff flowed. I liked the changes to the classes... well... most of them. I, however, hated the changes that were made to the spells. They seemed to go too far in the nerfing department.
In the end it comes down to what your tastes are.
If the system isn't what you're looking for take what you like from it and blend it with what you like from 3.x. Or maybe check out the other 3.75 type systems out there. True 20 is a good one, so is Trailblazer (or what I've seen of that one) there was a rather massive 3.x variant system published but I can't recall the name of it >.<
Unfortunately the search for the 'perfect' RPG is difficult and depends on what you're looking for. I loved trying to work with the PRPG but it was clear people wanted something different from my preferences. In the end I thought they got it %70 right for me which was better than what 3.5 had it.
Not sure if that helps but there's little you can do. Thankfully if you like the PRPG products like the AP's or the campaign setting you can easily use those with 3.5 with little difficulty. Hell, I've run a variant Golarion for 4th edition ever so briefly.
Good luck in getting it to work for you or finding something else that does.
In the end it comes down to what your tastes are.
If the system isn't what you're looking for take what you like from it and blend it with what you like from 3.x. Or maybe check out the other 3.75 type systems out there. True 20 is a good one, so is Trailblazer (or what I've seen of that one) there was a rather massive 3.x variant system published but I can't recall the name of it >.<
Unfortunately the search for the 'perfect' RPG is difficult and depends on what you're looking for. I loved trying to work with the PRPG but it was clear people wanted something different from my preferences. In the end I thought they got it %70 right for me which was better than what 3.5 had it.
Not sure if that helps but there's little you can do. Thankfully if you like the PRPG products like the AP's or the campaign setting you can easily use those with 3.5 with little difficulty. Hell, I've run a variant Golarion for 4th edition ever so briefly.
Good luck in getting it to work for you or finding something else that does.
Regarding CMB/CMD...
There is a character in my party who relies on CMB to tie down or otherwise hinder most dangerous opponents. Thanks to his quick thinking, several times an ugly situation was saved.
He could do that under 3.5, however adjudicating such maneuvers was much more difficult - now it's CMB vs CMD, assign circumstance/weapon modifiers (if any) and roll.
Regards,
Ruemere
There is a character in my party who relies on CMB to tie down or otherwise hinder most dangerous opponents. Thanks to his quick thinking, several times an ugly situation was saved.
He could do that under 3.5, however adjudicating such maneuvers was much more difficult - now it's CMB vs CMD, assign circumstance/weapon modifiers (if any) and roll.
Regards,
Ruemere
rizzotherat
First Post
I've played a bunch of low level scenarios, both as PC and DM. It felt like 3.5 without as much rules fuss bucketing.
PCs are more powerful.
The channel for Clerics is good change.
CMB v CMD - tick!
We have converted characters from our old 3.5 campaign to PF (14th to 15th level). I'll come back and report the experience.
Observations so far -
More HP for specialists and spellcasters hasn't made a huge impact on how the operate.
High level spells aren't the panacea they use to be.
My character still feels the same. One thing I did like was the Prestige Classes aren't as difficult to qualify for and there is certainly more incentive to stick with your primary class.
PCs are more powerful.
The channel for Clerics is good change.
CMB v CMD - tick!
We have converted characters from our old 3.5 campaign to PF (14th to 15th level). I'll come back and report the experience.
Observations so far -
More HP for specialists and spellcasters hasn't made a huge impact on how the operate.
High level spells aren't the panacea they use to be.
My character still feels the same. One thing I did like was the Prestige Classes aren't as difficult to qualify for and there is certainly more incentive to stick with your primary class.
Sylrae
First Post
I'm a fan of pathfinder, in that I feel it does address many of the things I did not like about 3.5. Trailblazer addressed many other things I didn't like about 3.5.
I'm quite picky about my game mechanics. So I take pathfinder, trailblazer, and a large number of houserules and make it into a game I would like to play. Obviously this means We're playing a largely different game than most, which means it's essentially a different game than a newcomer to the group may be expecting.
I've been running some golarion for about a year, every week. I'm about ready for a break from D&D, play something else, and when I return, I'll be running even more heavily modified pathfinder rules with converted 3e Realms setting stuff.
I think the paizo stuff is great, but it's obviously not perfect, and it's closer to 3.5 than I'd like(there are many other things I think should have been changed). I'm not a big fan of 4e though, so it's either play a different revision of D&D, or play another game (I'm writing my own game for myself to run, but will likely make a return to d20 in a few months).
I still buy PF stuff, but I don't subscribe, there are many products they put out that I wont want, but also many I DO want.
Also, Asmodeus is not a god in technicality. he's statted out like a monster iirc in the pathfinder book on devils, he just happens to be powerful enough to grant spells, and is worshipped enough to be listed as a god. But I like the Idea that in epic play, gods ARE NPCs/monsters you can fight.
I'm quite picky about my game mechanics. So I take pathfinder, trailblazer, and a large number of houserules and make it into a game I would like to play. Obviously this means We're playing a largely different game than most, which means it's essentially a different game than a newcomer to the group may be expecting.
I've been running some golarion for about a year, every week. I'm about ready for a break from D&D, play something else, and when I return, I'll be running even more heavily modified pathfinder rules with converted 3e Realms setting stuff.
I think the paizo stuff is great, but it's obviously not perfect, and it's closer to 3.5 than I'd like(there are many other things I think should have been changed). I'm not a big fan of 4e though, so it's either play a different revision of D&D, or play another game (I'm writing my own game for myself to run, but will likely make a return to d20 in a few months).
I still buy PF stuff, but I don't subscribe, there are many products they put out that I wont want, but also many I DO want.
Also, Asmodeus is not a god in technicality. he's statted out like a monster iirc in the pathfinder book on devils, he just happens to be powerful enough to grant spells, and is worshipped enough to be listed as a god. But I like the Idea that in epic play, gods ARE NPCs/monsters you can fight.
James Jacobs
Adventurer
Actually, he IS a god, even though he didn't start out as a god. We do allow the lesser archdevils and demon lords and Horsemen of the Apocalypse and the like to grant spells though.
In Pathfinder, there's basically 2 categories of deity: god/goddess and demigod/demigoddess. The god/goddess level deities don't have stat blocks at all, while the demigod/demigoddess level deities (this includes demon lords and archdevils and the like who haven't transcended to true god level, like Asmodeus or Lamashtu) do technically have stat blocks. When we were doing 3.5 Pathfinder products, the demigods would generally be around CR 25–35, more or less, but with Pathfinder RPG since we don't yet have epic rules nailed down, we'll be unlikely to be doing more stat blocks for demigods anytime soon. (CR 25 is about as high as we'll be going for a while for stats.)
We've only played maybe 6 sessions of PFRPG since it was released.. here's our mileage:
Skill system overhaul = great. We had too much table angst over missed math on skill synergies and dealing with exactly how many pts should go in Tumble vs Balance. Maybe this saves us 10 minutes a session to have simpler skills in place.
At-will cantrips = great. We play a lot of Level1-3 and that means a lot of potentially bored Bards and Wizards. Having Daze at will hasn't been game breaking for our bard, but has had folks say "wow you're actually kinda useful" at last.
Channel enegry = great. Again, a lot of Level1-3 and a lot of Cleric time was spent holding on to that very last 1-2 level 1 spells which had great RP spells in them, but created a lot of metagaming "hey maybe you should save that in case we need a Cure Lt Wounds". Now we finally see cool stuff like Longstrider, or Cause Fear, or Sanctuary used more often, and this makes the fights way more interesting.
The OP has some points that a 570+ page book is daunting and a possibly extraneous expense above 3.5 with just 5-10 house rules printed out on a single 8x11 page.
As someone with limited time I guess I see the true value from the PFRPG is community and the printed adventures. To me, its saving 30 minutes of time here, 5 minutes there so we can focus on the fun parts. With a rousing community of support, there's fan adventures, sheets, not to mention Paizo's products that already now embrace these extra house rules.. which is one less Level3 wizard BBEG to eyeball and award 6HP for extra survivability, or one less Level3 rogue NPC to eyeball their Acrobatics from their Balance/Tumble. For someone with a lot of time on their hands to develop house rules, their own adventures from scratch, I can see how its overkill. But for us casual types, it's good stuff to have an Internet full of 99% compatible (vs 90% compatible) goodies.
Skill system overhaul = great. We had too much table angst over missed math on skill synergies and dealing with exactly how many pts should go in Tumble vs Balance. Maybe this saves us 10 minutes a session to have simpler skills in place.
At-will cantrips = great. We play a lot of Level1-3 and that means a lot of potentially bored Bards and Wizards. Having Daze at will hasn't been game breaking for our bard, but has had folks say "wow you're actually kinda useful" at last.
Channel enegry = great. Again, a lot of Level1-3 and a lot of Cleric time was spent holding on to that very last 1-2 level 1 spells which had great RP spells in them, but created a lot of metagaming "hey maybe you should save that in case we need a Cure Lt Wounds". Now we finally see cool stuff like Longstrider, or Cause Fear, or Sanctuary used more often, and this makes the fights way more interesting.
The OP has some points that a 570+ page book is daunting and a possibly extraneous expense above 3.5 with just 5-10 house rules printed out on a single 8x11 page.
As someone with limited time I guess I see the true value from the PFRPG is community and the printed adventures. To me, its saving 30 minutes of time here, 5 minutes there so we can focus on the fun parts. With a rousing community of support, there's fan adventures, sheets, not to mention Paizo's products that already now embrace these extra house rules.. which is one less Level3 wizard BBEG to eyeball and award 6HP for extra survivability, or one less Level3 rogue NPC to eyeball their Acrobatics from their Balance/Tumble. For someone with a lot of time on their hands to develop house rules, their own adventures from scratch, I can see how its overkill. But for us casual types, it's good stuff to have an Internet full of 99% compatible (vs 90% compatible) goodies.
Drowbane
First Post
When it comes to rules mechanics I am picky and opinionated; Paizo wasn't likely to manage to "fix" every flaw I saw with 3.5. So when I'm thumbing through that beautiful and massive Pathfinder book I view it as a toolbox. A collected set of stuff that I can (and will) pull into my personal "3.75". I am also adopting several mechanics from Trailblazer (TB's fighter is badass).
Similar Threads
