proposal: not require summaries on character sheets

evilbob · Apr 25, 2010

This proposal is to have the quick summaries at the top of wiki character sheets (or on the 2nd page of the google doc) not be required to be filled out. It does not mean people cannot use them, nor should they be removed - just that they are optional. Specifically, I am talking about the following fields at the top of the page only:
Racial Abilities
Class Features
Feats
Skills
Languages
Rituals
All of these are duplicated in more detail lower in the sheet. These pieces of information at the top of the wiki page is what I am calling a quick summary.

And just in case this is still confusing people, follow this link:
http://l4w.wikia.com/wiki/L4W

C:Empathy_%28evilbob%29#Summary
I mean everything BELOW the gold attributes section and ABOVE the green powers section except basic attacks. In other words, everything that currently has the value "See below" (because it is duplicated lower on the sheet).

The reasons for this are:

- The cause errors. The majority of the errors I have seen on character sheets that I've checked came from the quick summary area. It requires people to do double work and they often forget or mess up changing it.

- The table of contents for a wiki page is just inches away and provides a quick way to find all of those pieces of information in more and better detail. On google sheets, the primary character page simply requires a little bit of scrolling.

- It takes more time. It's double work and inefficient. This may sound like a lazy excuse, and if you think it is then that's fine, but creating and updating character sheets - even on the google spreadsheet - takes a lot of time. I don't think I have to convince anyone of this. This is just one more way to shave a decent amount of time off the whole process and make these sheets easier and therefore more accessible.

I am guessing that the counterpoint to these arguments are that the quick summary fields are an easy way for DMs to check what is going on with a player. Again, I feel the benefits outweigh this concern, especially since it is very easy to find information on both the wiki and the google sheets and so a sumamry area doesn't really gain the DMs very much.

Ozymandias79 · Apr 25, 2010

Voting NO

still voting NO

ryryguy · Apr 25, 2010

evilbob said:
- The table of contents for a wiki page is just inches away and provides a quick way to find more and better detail. On google sheets, the primary character page simply requires a little bit of scrolling.

You're talking about the math section of a wiki sheet here?

stonegod · Apr 25, 2010

I think he's talking about the yellow/brown section at the top.

evilbob · Apr 26, 2010

Right - to be more specific, I'm talking about the yellow/brown area at the top of the page and most specifically these fields:

Racial Abilities
Class Features
Feats
Skills
Languages
Rituals

covaithe · Apr 26, 2010

How many squares can a wizard push an enemy he hits with Thunderwave? Exactly which enemies are targeted by the secondary attack from Force Orb? Does the secondary attack apply on a miss? Which keywords does it have?

All of that is in the summary, but not the math section on any sheet I've reviewed. As a DM, I need it. I can't run games without it.

evilbob · Apr 26, 2010

And none of that would be changed.

ONLY things that were duplicated lower in the sheet, such as feats, equipment, etc.

I can see this is confusing people so I haven't explained it well enough. I am talking about ONLY the stuff at the top of the wiki page (or on the 2nd page of the google doc) that is duplicated lower in the sheet (or from the first page). I am talking about the quick-summary: the list of feats, equipment, class features, etc., that are all detailed and expanded lower in the sheet. I am talking only about the list that I posted two posts above this one. That's all. Only things that are duplicated inches away that are superfluous and cause double work. Everything that actually gives information about your character or is unique would stay.

I have edited the OP to reflect these clarifications.

renau1g · Apr 26, 2010

I will vote the same as Ozy, NO.

As a DM of multiple games if I have to scour through the players sheets to find information it will increase my workload a fair bit. Also as a reviewer of sheets I find this information to be very important as I use it to enter into the CB without having to scroll all the way down the page. Again an increase in the time it takes me to review sheets.

As a player only has to update 1, maybe 2 or 3 pages once every few months I don't think it's terribly onerous to ask them to do it, especially as it takes approx. 10 minutes (at most). However, asking the judges/reviewers who review a couple dozen (at least) a month or the DM's who are spending tons of time already prepping the game, updating the adventure, etc. to spend even more time is not something I feel is fair.

covaithe · Apr 26, 2010

I think I'd be more open to this if you could make up a sample sheet showing how you envisage it, evilbob. I'm sympathetic to the complaint that the current wiki sheet is far from optimal; I always thought we'd keep tinkering with it and try to improve on it. Instead, it seems to have gotten stuck at the first vaguely-almost-suitable version.

evilbob · Apr 26, 2010

ozy: Thank you for the clarification on your response.

covaithe: The main thing I'd envision - at least currently - is simply the existing sheet without the duplicate information. Effectively, the wiki without those ~6 lines of text, or the google doc without the 2nd sheet. It is my opinion that this duplicated information is not, on the whole, that time-saving for judges or DMs - especially as more useful, detailed information is so readily available - and its benefits are outweighed by its detractions.

I also disagree partially with one of the points r1 brings up: I feel it will definitely save the reviewers' time. First, it will save (a very small amount of) time by only having information in one place instead of two, which cuts down on the amount of checking necessary. Second, it will save (a slightly greater amount of) time by cutting down the number of errors and thus correspondence about said errors.

To explain further: personally, when looking at someone's sheet for my own purposes I completely ignore the summary area and favor the detailed information; I find no burden in examining a greater amount of their sheet since frankly it helps me understand the character better overall. For others: they feel the opposite of me. At the end of the day, this proposal is about whether or not these tiny bits of detail at the top of the sheet (or 2nd page) are to be considered "required" or "optional." It is my opinion that they don't bring enough to the table to be required. If you don't agree, I doubt my arguments will really sway you.

Ultimately, I freely admit that this proposal is, at its heart, extremely trivial. The amount of time we're talking about on EITHER side is nearly too small to measure. For those who are not aware, the entire reason for the existence of this proposal is because I personally have repeatedly not filled in those summary areas of the various characters I've made. Instead, I've spent far more time explaining my position and writing a proposal than just filling in the damn sheet.

Ultimately, my own personal take is that I find those summaries a nuisance since I never use them. If you agree, or you think my arguments have merit, support the proposal. If not, don't.