Pathfinder 1E What we want in our Golarion...

SoldierBlue · Jun 2, 2010

Ladies and Gentlemen,

In a previous thread regarding Carrion Hill, an interesting side-bar thread developed regarding the Darklands, and campaign design in general, to which Mr. James Jacobs contributed his own thoughts.

For one, I'm keen on the design principles Mr. Jacobs mentioned - the idea that, while Golarion will be a highly detailed world (2 x APs a year, 6 x Chronicles a year, etc...), there has been an attempt to place two adventure nuggets that are not completely fleshed out to each highly detailed aspect.

I'm keen on where Golarion is headed, although I have my reservations.

First, I'm adverse to the idea of nation-states in fantasy. There is little precedent to the modern nation state in medieval history. Further, in a well-organized nation-state, there should be little room for adventure. So I'm not sure Andoran, Galt, et al are helpful in that respect.

Second, I'm a little disappointed that when you go north in Golarion you meet large bearded chaps with names like Bjorn who ride dragon ships. We can more more imaginative than that, folks. Moreover, I'm always a little disappointed by cultures that are lifted completely from our own planet...

Third, too human-centric. Let's make more room for demi-humans!

Golarion is a growing and developing world, and while the fine folks at Paizo have already enough ideas to take us far into the next decade with regard to Golarion's development, what do we as players want to see, and what don't we want to see?

This could be in terms of politics, cultures, etc, or it could be in respect to design philosophies...

I'm curious what kinds of ideas are out there...

James Jacobs · Jun 2, 2010

While I'm certainly interested in seeing where this thread goes... Golarion is ALSO a world we designed for ourselves. We happen to LIKE human-centric worlds, bearded northerners, and lots of nation-states, so elements like those are very unlikely to change. Especially since the campaign setting's won multiple awards for "best campaign setting." Which tells me that we're not alone in those likes.

Anyway, that said, I'm eager to see what sorts of areas folks are interested in seeing us explore. I'm just not as interested in seeing areas that folks are interested in seeing us change, I guess. ;-)

Qualidar · Jun 2, 2010

James, you've been eerily on target for me with nearly everything you've done, so I want you to "keep on doing what you're doing".

SoldierBlue said:
First, I'm adverse to the idea of nation-states in fantasy. There is little precedent to the modern nation state in medieval history. Further, in a well-organized nation-state, there should be little room for adventure. So I'm not sure Andoran, Galt, et al are helpful in that respect.

Second, I'm a little disappointed that when you go north in Golarion you meet large bearded chaps with names like Bjorn who ride dragon ships. We can more more imaginative than that, folks. Moreover, I'm always a little disappointed by cultures that are lifted completely from our own planet...

Third, too human-centric. Let's make more room for demi-humans!

Eberron, Greyhawk, The Known World, The Forgotten Realms, Westeros and whatever the lands from the Wheel of Time, Belgariad, and Mellorian are called have humanocentric well-organized nation states. Many with real world inspirations.

I think most of those are suitable for adventure.

Dark Mistress · Jun 2, 2010

SoldierBlue said:
First, I'm adverse to the idea of nation-states in fantasy. There is little precedent to the modern nation state in medieval history. Further, in a well-organized nation-state, there should be little room for adventure. So I'm not sure Andoran, Galt, et al are helpful in that respect.

Second, I'm a little disappointed that when you go north in Golarion you meet large bearded chaps with names like Bjorn who ride dragon ships. We can more more imaginative than that, folks. Moreover, I'm always a little disappointed by cultures that are lifted completely from our own planet...

Third, too human-centric. Let's make more room for demi-humans!

1 - That's actually one of the things I like about the setting. Many of the countries I find very interesting.

2 - Well to be fair there are other ones. The Mammoth Lords are more Conan esk and then you have the Irrisen locked in winter with fey and witches running around. Now Lands of the Linnorm Kings is like vikings true enough. But I have no problem with them borrowing from real world cultures.

3 - Another thing I actually like about it.

Now what I would like to see? Well their take on the Persian Empire which they have a country like that and it is touched on. But a region book. There take on Asia and the New World. All of which they have mentioned. Personally I would like them to take the base of real world history and myths and then apply their magic.

I do want to see them expand the planes or the details of them anyways. I know I am not much help to the OP, since I basically want more of the same from Golarion.

Steel_Wind · Jun 2, 2010

I prefer a human-centric world, with analogies to real world cultures. While beareded northmen may well be trite, like many (if not most) English speaking RPG players, I'm a northern european mutt, descended in large part from those same northmen.

So that connection, and a smattering of pseudo-Medieval European cultures resonates with me in a way that nothing else really does.

Sorry if that's dreadfully dull and retro to some, but that is my preference.

For trips to the weird, Azlan and its ruins might be something I would enjoy to see some fleshing out.

Whatever the case, the beauty of a kitchen-sink world like Golarion is that if there is some aspect of a fantasy world that you prefer, you can find some analogy to it in the setting. You then focus on that slice of that world and use what detail there is to flesh it out more clearly to be your "main campaign area". In that way, you focus on that highlighted area to convey the flavor and mythological roots and context to your particular campaign that you want. Most everybody can find some way to get out of the setting what it is that they want in that fashion.

That is, in the end, the whole point to a kitchen-sink setting.

wakedown · Jun 3, 2010

I'm actually a fan of a campaign setting where I can communicate with the wide range of players at my table and draw real-Earth comparables.

Being able to tell a novice player "Mwangi is like Africa" makes it easier for their minds to grok the world, and focus on their characters and the adventure, without having to spend brain cells on learning that in "this world" the "african contintent is in the north pole".

All my favorite worlds, whether Hyboria, Greyhawk, Westeros or Golarion - they all have roughly the same earth-like feel that makes it really easy to get past the basics and learn what to expect from the geography.

I specifically want the world where I'm running adventurers to enable my players to fulfill any dream of a concept they want to pursue. Did they just read Beowulf and want to play a "northerner/viking" - Golarion lets them. Just get inspired by a Bruce Lee movie? Roll up your Tian. My players really quickly felt at home in Golarion, which let them to be willing to quickly adopt it as a place to adventure.

If it was too alien, it would be a hard sell for a DM. Paizo doesn't have breath-taking works of fiction (yet?) to sell would-be players that "this world is awesome, you'll want to invest in learning it". A setting that is foreign/alien/unexpected needs something besides a hardcover Campaign Setting book to make it accessible if it treads too far from real-world Earth....

Set · Jun 3, 2010

I like most of what Golarion already has done, but I do enjoy settings that have slightly more of a non-human presence. (Eberron and Kalamar's hobgoblin / goblinoid kingdoms, for instance, were very cool.)

As a result, I decided that Elves and Gnomes, being more or less recent returnees, make sense to not have a huge presence on the map.

But I would prefer to increase the number of Halflings in various nations, fully integrated with human-dominated lands, up to as many as 30% of the total population in some nations (but, unsurprisingly, under-represented in the ruling castes of many of these nations...).

Similarly, the Dwarves being relegated to the Five Kings Mountains, and not even having an on-map presence, or even a city of their own (at least, not one big enough to show up on the map), didn't quite suit my fancy, so instead, I'd be inclined to change pretty much the entire human population of the Lands of the Linnorm Kings to Dwarves. The Ulfen population of Irrisen, etc. stretching all the way to Numeria could be heavily Dwarvish.

megablake · Jun 3, 2010

I became obsessed with running Golarion because of the variety of nation-states, so you'll here no complaint there. I'm also quite fine with a human-centric world, not because I prefer humans, but because I think the culture of other races should be a little alien. I don't want my dwarves to just be Vikings or villagers (I've heard several gamers turning the Land of the Linnorm Kings into Dwarven territory, which is completely fine by me), I want them to have their own hierarchy and laws and living spaces. Same goes for elves and orcs (although I'd like to see more on how halflings and gnomes interact with the world).

That said, what I'd like in Golarion? More detail on places! They should be places that are easy to grasp and fun to "sell" to players and locals they should vist, be they kingdom or tomb. I'd like to see more of Nex and Geb and that little gunslinging sandwich nation. I can't wait for another World Book detailing the Tien. I'd like to see more on the Darklands (I know there's a book, but it just left me hungry for more!) and more on the Great Beyond (same). I'd love to see what's in store for the other worlds in the Dark Tapestry, and just what's up with Numeria. But mostly I just want to know what's up with the Troll underbite.

SoldierBlue · Jun 3, 2010

Hmmmm....maybe I started things off on the wrong foot by stating three things I didn't like about Golarion, when I should have spoke about what I like about Golarion.

I love the sense of space - less in a geographical sense, but in the sense that there is terra incognita in between what is known. There is, as I've said elsewhere, plenty of room for adventure.

I really like Katapesh, and how gnolls there are more than just another humanoid race roaming around in tribes, and that Katapesh echoes Persia or the Sahara of old but has its own twists and ambience.

And at the risk of sounding like a total wonk, the birth of the modern nation state (with flags, a sense of nationalism, taxation, identifiable borders) doesn't occur in Europe until after the Treaty of Wesphalia in 1648, long after the traditional medieval period had ended. So I'm always uncomfortable with their placement in fantasy worlds.

The proto-patriotism invoked by Henry V or Joan of Arc would be alien to us now.

More pragmatically, a strong nation-state with secure borders is simply not that attrative for adventuring...

Don't get me wrong - Golarion is now our gaming world of choice, and I only critique because I care...

PS - I've been warned against buying the Campaign Guide because a new one is in the works. True/False?