Mesh Hongs Monster Request / Discussion Thread

Southern Oracle said:

The first thing I note, Rechan, is the lack of an aura, which (I'm guessing without checking every single one) all swarms have.

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Well yes that goes without saying.

I'd also recommend that frenzied rending deal the ongoing damage as well, since the swarm's basic attack does.

Finally, I'd give it either a move action power or a minor action power; look at blur of black from the raven swarm, or pull down from the needlefang drake swarm.

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I'm kinda leery of the "pull down" power. It doesn't make sense thematically unless it's a swarm that naturally would pull things down.

Blur to black makes no sense because all swarms can move through enemies squares. So it's a move action saying "This swarm does what swarms can do when it moves".

Rechan said:

Blur to black makes no sense because all swarms can move through enemies squares. So it's a move action saying "This swarm does what swarms can do when it moves".

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Actually, that's not what the definition of a swarm says. Swarms can occupy the same space as another creature, and an enemy can enter a swarm's squares, treating it as difficult terrain, but there's nothing that says a swarm can move through an enemy's squares. Hence the power blur to black.

If an enemy can enter and occupy a space in a swarm, it stands to reason that the swarm can move into the enemy's space. There are several swarms (the snake swarm iirc) which subjects a target to an effect when they are in its space.

To which point I'd rather just take Mesh Hong's characteristics for swarms, and just say that PCs inside the swarm's area take an auto 5 damage (instead of an attack), almost like a damaging aura, and that all swarms can move through PCs squares. The end.

Rechan said:

Hey Mesh Hong. I see your point about swarms, but that does also end up limiting what swarms you can use. for instance, if they can ONLY be effected by blast/burst/zones, that means they are death for parties that have few burst/blast/zone powers.

For instance, in my group, only 2 Pcs have burst/blast AWs, 3 PCs have a burst encounter, and only 1 has a daily burst. An encounter with ONE swarm (and other non-swarms) is going to be grindy and hard to kill. Not to mention that one PC is a warlord specializing in giving allies extra basic attacks, so he would be useless against swarms you tweaked.

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Hmm its only the status effects I am talking about, the damage still gets through. From you post it seems like you are thinking that swarms do not take damage from single target attacks, which of course would be a little harsh!

Remember that swarms generally have lower HPs to compensate for there resistance. I think it is usually about 80% or expected. But you could reduce it down to about 60% if you thought your group couldn't handle it. Personally I wouldn't do that, but then my group are rounded enough to deal with anything.

Quote:
Swarm may move through and end its turn in other creatures squares; the Swarm never provokes opportunity attacks and it may not make opportunity attacks itself.

Rechan said:

The first line is redundant, since all swarms can move through and enter targets' spaces.

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Well this highlights how often I read the books! I love looking stupid so here are the proper rules on swarms, and my own rules on swarms for comparison.


(MM1 p.283)
Swarm [Keyword]: A swarm is considered a single monster even though it is composed of several Tiny creatures. Most single swarms are Medium, but some can be larger.

A swarm takes half damage from melee and ranged attacks. It is vulnerable to close and area attacks, as indicated in the monster’s stat block.

A swarm is immune to forced movement (pull, push, and slide) effects from melee and ranged attacks. Close or area attacks that impose forced movement affect the swarm normally.

A swarm can enter or move through an enemy’s space; this movement does not provoke opportunity attacks. An enemy can enter a space occupied by a swarm, but the space occupied by the swarm is considered difficult terrain, and
doing so provokes an opportunity attack.

A swarm can squeeze through any opening large enough to accommodate even one of its constituent creatures. For example, a swarm of bats can squeeze through any opening large enough for one of the bats to squeeze.

(Mesh Hongs Mechanics)
Swarm Characteristics 1
Swarm may move through and end its turn in other creatures squares; the Swarm never provokes opportunity attacks and it may not make opportunity attacks itself.

Swarm Characteristics 2
Swarm is only subject to effects generated from area attacks (such as blasts, burst and zones), effects generated from single target effects have no effect. The exceptions to this are class abilities such as sneak attack, quarry, curse, mark and divine challenge.

Analysis:
They are surprisingly similar. With the two main differences being:

1 – My system applies the same criteria to all movement, Swarm and PC may move through each others squares without provoking opportunity attacks, and it ignores a difficult terrain penalty for the PC.

2 – My system takes the Close and Area forced movement restrictions and applies it to all status effects.

Rechan said:

On the topic of swarms, here's one I'm toying with.

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Rechan said:

Piranha Bird Swarm Level 2 Lurker
Medium Natural Beast (Swarm)
HP: 24 Bloodied: 12
AC: 16 Fort: 13 Ref: 15 Will: 12
Speed: 1, Fly 6 (hover)

Tearing Beaks
+7 vs. AC; 1d8+3 damage and ongoing 5 (save ends).

Frenzied Rending
Target bloodied creature; +7 vs. AC; 2d8+3 damage.

Scattering Feathers - Immediate reaction when first bloodied
The piranha bird swarm breaks apart into its component parts and canot be attacked until the start of its next turn, at which point it reforms in any square within 5 squares of its original space.


The idea behind the monster is that it's a flock of small, parrot-like birds. They look fairly innocent, just sitting in nearby trees in one area where a combat will take place. When someone (PC or monster) goes bloodied, the birds smell blood, go into a frenzy and swarm the target, tearing it to shreds. They are supposed to be scary, and are intended to be a surprise that shakes up an otherwise normal looking battle several rounds in.

But I'm not sure if the above really captures that feel.

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I really like it, the idea is good. You are probably going to have to allow some sort of nature check to recognise the Piranha Birds for what they are. A DC 20 nature check would be about 50% success for an even levelled and trained PC.

Of course just because the birds are recognised doesn’t mean that the PCs can do anything about it as the birds are still scattered and not swarming.

I think the Scattering Feathers reaction is brilliant, and could be applied to all sorts of swarms. Good stuff.

I am also assuming that as this is a swarm you are keeping the normal resistance and vulnerabilities? In this case I would probably set the vulnerability at 5 (instead of 10)

I might also consider giving the Piranha Birds an effective +1 to hit against bloodied or bleeding targets. Bleeding damage is a term I use quite a lot, usually because I don’t like untyped ongoing damage

Looking at other posts:
I wouldn't actually have the standard attack aura on this swarm. I don't think it needs it.

If you use my Swarm Mechanics then it would not need a movement power.

You could however add a "0" range aura that had the effect of any creature sharing a square with swarm takes a -2 penalty to attack rolls against all creatures other than the swarm.

Might want to include the ongoing 5 damage on the Frenzied Rending - otherwise it's lower average damage than the basic attack. Which works fine on someone already taking ongoing, but eh.

keterys said:

Might want to include the ongoing 5 damage on the Frenzied Rending - otherwise it's lower average damage than the basic attack. Which works fine on someone already taking ongoing, but eh.

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Its higher spike damage though, and its only a level 2 creature. You could add 5 ongoing, but personally I don't think its necessary.

Mesh Hong, I have a request and it's sort of a time crunch; I need these monsters designed by monday night.

Here's the skinny. The PCs are going to check out an island close to the shore of this lost continent.

The little island is where a Tiefling Pirate has been storing souls - literally, a buried treasure of souls. She's trying to buy her way into a powerful position in hell, and these are souls she's been skimming from her usual haul. The Tiefling is backed by hell, with a hell-powered crew and few minor devils and devil minions on her payroll.

Said pirate has properly protected her treasure by capturing a fey sorceress or likely a dryad and harnessed the fey's power to fuel the various magics binding devils, powering summoning magic to bring in MORE devils, and the few other tricks. The PCs, when they reach the shore, are going to be told by the dryad how to release her (and thus releasing most of the bindings) - at which point several of the devils on the island are going to be coming for them.

Trouble is, there are very few low level devils. And there are so many options to reskin I'm not sure what to pick and nothing feels right. All that which is Devil-y is just 'fire damage and a melee attack whee". Nothing exciting.

Get to the point Rechan, what do you want?

I request at least one of the following, but you can do more than one if you want:
1) A solo; either a nasty devil or a jungle beast that has been captured, trapped on the island, and infused with hellish or Druidy-fey power.
2) Elites; damned souls, nasty devils work fine.
3) Just some interesting devils.

Catch: The party is only 2nd level! This session is going to see them bumped up to third, and I want to give them a nice fat bit of loot, so I want them to earn it. The party:
Genasi Swordmage
Halfling Sorcerer
Human Monk
Human Wizard
Tiefling Warlord

So, a lot of glass cannons that can beat on something but not a lot of healing support.

Well you aren’t giving me a lot of time but I will see what I can do.

Lets start with a level 4 solo.

Why not give them a King Kong style threat, a huge demon in the form of a terrible ape with thick matted black and red fur, glowing red eyes and a roar that echoes for miles through the jungle.

As written this creature has MM1 HPs, MM2 defences and MM3 “to hit” values. You might want to drop its HPs to 80% (about 175) to take the edge off it.

This creature is designed with an encounter based limited resource in mind. For its Tree Swing attack it needs to be standing in reach of a suitably sized tree that it can pull up and swing as a weapon. The tree is only usable for 1 attack (breaks on hit or miss) so you would need an environment that contains at least 2 or 3 suitable trees. This would both encourage the creature to move about and would also present the PCs some tactical consideration in keeping away from the trees. (they might even think of rendering the trees useless by hacking them down or setting fire to them?).

Chkk'Tukk (the terrible ape) Level 4 Solo Brute
Huge Immortal Beast (demon) XP 875

Initiative +4 Senses Perception +8, darkvision
The Smell of Fear (fear, activates when first bloodied) aura 2; all
enemies inside the aura take a -2 penalty to attack rolls and saving
throws
HP 216; Bloodied 108; also see The Smell of Fear, Raging Throw, Primal
Terror
AC 16; Fortitude 17, Reflex 16, Will 15
Resist 5 variable (3/encounter);
Vulnerable 5 fire, also see Enraged by Fire
Saving Throws +5
Speed 5, charge 7, climb 5
Action Points 2

Slam (Standard; at-will)
Reach 2; attack +9 vs. AC; 2d6+4 damage; on hit target is pushed 2
squares and Chkk'Tukk may follow up 2 squares

Wild Thrashing (Standard; at-will)
Chkk'Tukk makes a Slam attack against a primary target; hit or miss
Chkk'Tukk makes a Slam attack against a secondary target

Trample (Standard; encounter)
Chkk'Tukk moves 7 squares and may move through (and end its turn) in
enemy squares, this movement provokes opportunity attacks; for each
enemy square Chkk'Tukk enters it makes the following attack; attack +7
vs. Fortitude; 2d10+4 damage; on hit target is dazed (save ends); on miss
target may shift 2 squares and is knocked prone; at the end of this action
Chkk'Tukk slides any enemy sharing a square with him to any free square
adjacent to him

Raging Throw (Standard; recharge ) ♦ only while bloodied
Reach 2; attack +7 vs. Reflex; 1d10+4 damage; on hit target is grabbed
and Chkk'Tukk makes a secondary atatck against the same target; attack
+7 vs. Fortitude; 2d10 damage; on hit target is thrown (push) 10 squares
and is knocked prone

Primal Terror (Immediate Interrupt; at-will) ♦ fear, only while bloodied
When Chkk'Tukk is targeted by a close, area or ranged attack it may make
the following attack as an immediate interrupt; this attack does not
provoke opportunity attacks; range 10; attack +7 vs. Will; 1d6+4 damage;
on hit target takes a -2 penalty to its attack roll for this attack, and is
immobilised (save ends)

Tree Swing (Standard; recharge ) ♦ requires suitable object
Burst 5; attack +7 vs. Reflex; 2d8+4 damage; on hit target in knocked
prone; on miss target takes half damage; hit or miss this attack breaks
the tree (or object used to make this attack)

Call of the Wild (Standard; encounter) ♦ thunder, fear
Burst 5; attack +7 vs. Will; 1d10+2 thunder damage; on hit slide target 5
squares and target is slowed and takes a -2 penalty to attack rolls (save
ends both); on miss target is slowed (save ends)

Enraged by Fire♦ when Chkk'Tukk takes fire damage
When Chkk'Tukk takes fire damage it gains a +1 power bonus to its attack
rolls until the end of its next turn

Alignment Chaotic Evil Languages Supernal
Skills Athletics +11, Intimidate +8
Str 18 (+6) Dex 15 (+4) Wis 13 (+3)
Con 14 (+4) Int 6 (+0) Cha 6 (+0)

As I said I haven’t got long to crank these creatures out for you, but I hope this gives you some ideas.

Here is an interesting spirit creature twisted by devilish soul magic:

Soul Fisher Level 2 Controller
Medium Immortal Humanoid XP 125

Initiative +4 Senses Perception +8, darkvision
HP 26; Bloodied 13
AC 16; Fortitude 12, Reflex 15, Will 14
Immune disease, poison;
Resist 10 radiant, insubstantial; Vulnerable 5 necrotic
Speed 7, phasing

Spirit Swipe (Standard; at-will) ♦ radiant
Attack +7 vs. Fortitude; 1d6+3 radiant damage; on hit target glows and
grants combat advantage to all enemies (save ends)

Radiant Tether (Standard; at-will) ♦ radiant
Range 10; attack +7 vs. Reflex; 1d10+3 radiant damage; on hit target is
slowed and connected to the Soul Fisher by a translucent radiant Tether
(save ends both)

Drain Soul (Standard; at-will) ♦ radiant, tethered target only
Range target tethered by Soul Fisher; does not provoke opportunity
attacks; attack +7 vs. Fortitude; 1d8+3 radiant damage; hit or miss
target loses a healing surge

Spirit Drift (Immediate Reaction; at-will) ♦ hit by any attack
When hit by any attack Soul Fisher may shift 3 squares as an immediate
reaction

Alignment Evil Languages common
Skills Stealth +9
Str 8 (+0) Dex 16 (+4) Wis 14 (+3)
Con 10 (+1) Int 14 (+3) Cha 10 (+1)