Where Did All The Girls Go?
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Doug McCrae
Legend
Might be an idea to put a link in the main body of your OP. Personally I have sigs switched off. Doesn't everyone?
I don't think they're real girls, just guys in drag.
The real controversy would be: if Ru Paul played D&D would you play with him?
The real controversy would be: if Ru Paul played D&D would you play with him?
I don't think they're real girls, just guys in drag.
The real controversy would be: if Ru Paul played D&D would you play with him?
Is he a good player? Does he like sandbox campaigns? Sure!
Mark
CreativeMountainGames.com
Epic, indeed. That's one of the lengthiest blog posts I have seen yet on the Internet. I bow to your virtual longwindedness. As to its controversiality, I think there are a lot more women gaming then is generally known, in part because of the potentially anonymous nature of the Internet and due also to how much gaming is done in the home rather than in gamestores or other public venues. I'm not sure that any particular game or gaming style is more prone to bring women gamers to the table, so I question that line of reasoning, though I would concede that the more styles and games available, the more likely to bring more gamers in general and thus more women gamers overall. Anyway, I haven't read it all just yet but hope to do so soon. Thanks, nedjer, and good luck with the ensuing feedback.
Here's the link -
Thistle Games
ExploderWizard
Hero
Do I see this happening? Are there any girls there?
outsider
First Post
Every long term gaming group I've ever played in has had at least one woman in it. I think your assertion that crunch factor and combat turn them off is HIGHLY innaccurate. I've played with several female powergamers over the years, and never has any woman suggested to me that a RPG is too complicated, nor that there needs to be less combat.
I was speaking to a female friend of mine a couple weeks back. She has been playing D&D in a group for a few months, and decided to join another group as well. She told me that the other players at the new game made her feel "skeeved". They were checking her out alot, and had no subtlety about it at all. Another thing she mentioned is that they automatically assumed that she didn't know how to play. Another frequent complaint I've heard from the women in my groups over the years is that they felt pressed into playing the cleric.
I think that if you want to understand why women aren't as common in tabletop rp as they could be, the smart thing to do isn't to make assumptions, it's to ask women. Talk to female tabletop rpers and ask them if there's anything that discourages them from playing. Talk to female larpers or mmorpg players or even women that really like fantasy fiction and find out why they don't play tabletop rpgs. Don't just assume that the games are too complicated for them, as it is both inaccurate and highly insulting.
I was speaking to a female friend of mine a couple weeks back. She has been playing D&D in a group for a few months, and decided to join another group as well. She told me that the other players at the new game made her feel "skeeved". They were checking her out alot, and had no subtlety about it at all. Another thing she mentioned is that they automatically assumed that she didn't know how to play. Another frequent complaint I've heard from the women in my groups over the years is that they felt pressed into playing the cleric.
I think that if you want to understand why women aren't as common in tabletop rp as they could be, the smart thing to do isn't to make assumptions, it's to ask women. Talk to female tabletop rpers and ask them if there's anything that discourages them from playing. Talk to female larpers or mmorpg players or even women that really like fantasy fiction and find out why they don't play tabletop rpgs. Don't just assume that the games are too complicated for them, as it is both inaccurate and highly insulting.
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Hussar
Legend
I think the answer to your question is far simpler.
For all intents and purposes, outside of established gamers anyway, D&D is THE roleplaying game. That's the one everyone knows. The problem is, it's fantasy. And it's based on fantasy written primarily before about 1980.
Let's be honest here. Fantasy genre hasn't exactly been welcoming to women. SF and Fantasy both are pretty much boys only clubs. Protagonists are overwhelmingly male, female characters are portrait, if at all, as inneffectual or victims. On the rare occassion where you actually have a female protagonist, she's usually a sidekick. It's not until after about 1980 (and quite possibly a few years later), with the explosion of the genre, that you see the genre start having broader appeal.
The first time you see an RPG that actually appeals to women is Vampire - and it was riding the Anne Rice wave of horror readers. Vampires have HUGE appeal to women readers.
In D&D, none of the archetypes actually line up with any sort of strong female concept. They're almost all male. No witch, no sorceress, nothing that actually directly speaks to a female player. It's not really shocking that women don't play as much as men do.
You have a hobby inspired by a very male dominated hobby (tabletop wargaming) set primarily in a genre which was almost completely male dominated (fantasy and SF), being played mostly by teens.
This should not come as a shock to anyone.
For all intents and purposes, outside of established gamers anyway, D&D is THE roleplaying game. That's the one everyone knows. The problem is, it's fantasy. And it's based on fantasy written primarily before about 1980.
Let's be honest here. Fantasy genre hasn't exactly been welcoming to women. SF and Fantasy both are pretty much boys only clubs. Protagonists are overwhelmingly male, female characters are portrait, if at all, as inneffectual or victims. On the rare occassion where you actually have a female protagonist, she's usually a sidekick. It's not until after about 1980 (and quite possibly a few years later), with the explosion of the genre, that you see the genre start having broader appeal.
The first time you see an RPG that actually appeals to women is Vampire - and it was riding the Anne Rice wave of horror readers. Vampires have HUGE appeal to women readers.
In D&D, none of the archetypes actually line up with any sort of strong female concept. They're almost all male. No witch, no sorceress, nothing that actually directly speaks to a female player. It's not really shocking that women don't play as much as men do.
You have a hobby inspired by a very male dominated hobby (tabletop wargaming) set primarily in a genre which was almost completely male dominated (fantasy and SF), being played mostly by teens.
This should not come as a shock to anyone.
Wik
First Post
Over the next few days, there are going to be a lot of posts that say "not so at my table". It seems to be how these threads come together.
From personal experience, there is usually a slight majority of males at my table, but nothing to really get worried about. Both of my female players are strikers (both are the same class, in fact!) and neither is particularly mechanically minded. But both are vital to the party's success, and I don't think either has ever played (or been pushed into) a support role.
I think the bigger problem with "women in gaming" has been addressed already, and the answer is simple: male gamers. There is a gaming store that usually has a game going on it. It used to be a hobby of my girlfriend at the time (who was not into gaming) to go into that store with me, because she enjoyed becoming the centre of attention of every male in the room. There are, unfortunately, a lot of "Gamer geeks" who can be a little odd. And this can unsettle women at the table.
I've had gamers who had never met the rest of the table sit down, start playing, and instantly assume everyone at the table knew how to play the game... except my female players (and he would give them "advice", even though it wasn't asked for). This is one of the deterrants right there.
And then there are GMs who assume that women players, on the basis of their gender alone, want certain things in the game. These GMs often try to change their game style to accomodate their perceptions on what the women want in a game - usually without bothering to ask the female player. Many of us have seen it - the whole "women PCs inevitably will get involved in a romance because the GM thinks that's what the female wants" fiasco.
My two female players? Neither wants to be the centre of attention, but both want to be very vital to the group's success. One likes being able to "think outside the box" and come up with clever solutions to a group's problems, while the other likes being the queen of ass-kicking. Both do their jobs very, very well.
If I showed you how our combats played out, removing character names and genders from the examples, you wouldn't be able to figure out which PC was played by a woman and which by a male. And this would be the case at many tables. So why assume that women want anything different then men?
And, finally - why does it matter? If 80% of gamers are men, does that matter? Why do we need to recruit more women? We're not into marketing or anything - it's just a game. And some things appeal more to one gender than another (how many men are into crafts? Or horseback riding? Or baking? All of those are hobbies that have both genders involved... but tend to have more women). So why is this even an issue?
From personal experience, there is usually a slight majority of males at my table, but nothing to really get worried about. Both of my female players are strikers (both are the same class, in fact!) and neither is particularly mechanically minded. But both are vital to the party's success, and I don't think either has ever played (or been pushed into) a support role.
I think the bigger problem with "women in gaming" has been addressed already, and the answer is simple: male gamers. There is a gaming store that usually has a game going on it. It used to be a hobby of my girlfriend at the time (who was not into gaming) to go into that store with me, because she enjoyed becoming the centre of attention of every male in the room. There are, unfortunately, a lot of "Gamer geeks" who can be a little odd. And this can unsettle women at the table.
I've had gamers who had never met the rest of the table sit down, start playing, and instantly assume everyone at the table knew how to play the game... except my female players (and he would give them "advice", even though it wasn't asked for). This is one of the deterrants right there.
And then there are GMs who assume that women players, on the basis of their gender alone, want certain things in the game. These GMs often try to change their game style to accomodate their perceptions on what the women want in a game - usually without bothering to ask the female player. Many of us have seen it - the whole "women PCs inevitably will get involved in a romance because the GM thinks that's what the female wants" fiasco.
My two female players? Neither wants to be the centre of attention, but both want to be very vital to the group's success. One likes being able to "think outside the box" and come up with clever solutions to a group's problems, while the other likes being the queen of ass-kicking. Both do their jobs very, very well.
If I showed you how our combats played out, removing character names and genders from the examples, you wouldn't be able to figure out which PC was played by a woman and which by a male. And this would be the case at many tables. So why assume that women want anything different then men?
And, finally - why does it matter? If 80% of gamers are men, does that matter? Why do we need to recruit more women? We're not into marketing or anything - it's just a game. And some things appeal more to one gender than another (how many men are into crafts? Or horseback riding? Or baking? All of those are hobbies that have both genders involved... but tend to have more women). So why is this even an issue?
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