DracoSuave
First Post
There IS no automatic hit. It does not hit. Automatically OR otherwise.
The word hit, or even attack roll, has NOTHING to do with the power.
The word hit, or even attack roll, has NOTHING to do with the power.
Magic Missile while blinded
Henry
Autoexreginated
I'd have to agree with Minifig's reading of the rules - it also makes sense from my "common sense-o-meter", so that's the way I'd rule also. No line of sight, no targeting the auto-hitting spell.
EDIT: I had to change my mind after reading on Page 272: "When you use a melee attack or a ranged attack, you can target a square instead of an enemy. This tactic is useful when the enemy has total concealment and you have to guess its location."
So, yeah, by the rules you really can use magic missile to attack "the darkness."
EDIT: I had to change my mind after reading on Page 272: "When you use a melee attack or a ranged attack, you can target a square instead of an enemy. This tactic is useful when the enemy has total concealment and you have to guess its location."
So, yeah, by the rules you really can use magic missile to attack "the darkness."
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Which in this case doesn't matter. Here you need LoS and LoE, without LoS you're LoE doesn't matter.
That is because most powers only require LoE.
No, because MM requires LoS in addition to LoE.
Yes, because ranged weapon only requires LoE, however ranged sight does require LoS
It's a special restriction of the sight range that other ranges do not share.
You see, that's what you get for answering after only having read page 1/2 and not caring enough for essentials to having read the new MM rules.
Since MM is ranged 20 instead of ranged sight the other posters are correct, you do not need LoS.
Correct, but entirely irrelevant.
No, in 4e you don't. Forget realism, the 4e rules simply say that you don't. The range sight thing is a special that only applies to range sight.
I'm A Banana
Potassium-Rich
Magic Missile doesn't have a range of "sight," though. It has a range of 20.
Henry said:
It passes my "common sense-o-meter" because, in 4e, while you are "blinded," you still know exactly where everyone is.
That in itself is a little logic-breaking, but the idea, I believe, is that you can tell where everyone is because you can hear them and smell them and feel them just fine. Your allies tell you where they are. And, because you're a Big Fat Hero, you can tell where your enemy is based on the sound of their footsteps and the noise of combat. Without a perception check. You just know where they are anyway.
So, even while you're blinded, you can chuck daggers and hurl flasks of acid and fire bows. You take a hefty penalty on your attack rolls, but you blast them in generally the right direction.
The enemy can only avoid you knowing where it is if it makes a Stealth check. In that case, it is trying to remain unseen and quiet, so you need to make a Perception check to know where it's at.
The new Magic Missile falls into the camp of being like a dagger that you don't have to make an attack roll for. Because you know where your enemy is, you can send your Magic Missile in the right direction, and it will hurt the enemy (the same thing that makes it go around armor and through shields makes the attack penalties from being blinded irrelevant as well).
You know where your enemy is, even while blinded, so you can still attack in generally the right direction. And Magic Missile's magical ability is to hit the right enemy, even if it's only fired in vaguely the right direction. Which is why you don't need to make an attack roll for it -- it finds its own way to the target, just as it does if your target is in full plate with a kite shield, or is a dragon covered in scales, or is hiding in the bushes.
You point at the enemy, and your magic dart hits them. You can still know where the enemy is, and still hit them, when you're blind (unless the enemy is also using Stealth, in which case, you can make a Perception check, or just try and guess).
Minifig
First Post
How do you point at the enemy? You can't see it.
The magic missile won't know where to go.
You're effectively pointing off into the darkness.
Just because I'm pointing in one direction doesn't mean it's going to necessarily follow that path.. read the description of the power.
It says it's a Ranged Basic Attack, AND/OR a Standard action.
In order to do either of them, you have to have a sight check to do it.
Example:
In order to swing my weapon as a warden to hit something, I have to do a sight check. If I can't see it, I can't hit it. That's because it's a standard action.
If my warden attempts to use his x-bow, and he can't see it, that's a ranged basic attack.
If my warden cannot see the thing he's attacking..there will be no effect to affect the thing he's trying to effect. He's ... attacking the darkness.
The same thing applies if he's blind.
Cover your eyes.
Pick an object in your room to attack.
Now .. attack it with your hand.
Did you hit it assuming it wasn't too far away?
Now .. do the same .. only throw a piece of balled up paper with at it while your eyes are closed/covered etc. No peeking!
Did you hit it again?
Now you've experienced 'blind' effects.
You need to roll a perception check, you cannot perceive the object when your eyes are blind because you cannot see it.
No, you don't. The only exception is the range of sight. If the range is just weapon or a fixed number of squares you don't need LoS
Which in 4e means a simple -5 to hit, that's all. As has been mentioned you're even aware exactly where everybody is unless they also make a stealth check.
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Minifig
First Post
It says it's a ranged basic attack.
Our DM told us that in order to do any basic attack; eg: any at will; you must have the ability to do that action.
How can you see what you're targeting if you're blind?
I don't understand how hard it is for some of you to grasp that idea..
Sure, you can throw it off, but you have to have something for it to hit, and in order for the wizard to have something to hit.. he has to be able to see it first. In order to see it first, he has to be able to see it, because as much as I hate to say it.. casting magic missile counts as an action. What are you going to cast if you can't see anything to cast it at? It's a waste of the at will power, unless .. of course.. you really are attacking the darkness.
I'm A Banana
Potassium-Rich
Same way you fire a bow or throw a dagger at them: your friends tell you where to aim, and your ears and other senses guide you, and you are a Big Fat Hero, so you know where an enemy is by the sound of its footsteps and the smell of its sweat.
Being blinded doesn't make you unable to know where the enemy is.
Close your eyes for a moment. Now imagine someone opening the door to the room and shouting a battle cry at you. Think you could chuck a book in their general direction? That's what being blinded is kind of like, according to the 4e rules.
That's not true, though. Standard Actions don't require any sort of check of any sort, and ranged attacks, as I've pointed out, don't require you to see what you're aiming at. Because you can tell where your enemy is without having to see them.
That's not true, though. If you're blinded, you can still know where your enemy is and swing at them with your sword and maybe hit them. You take a pretty big penalty, but you can still give it a whirl and maybe hit them -- maybe even crit them!
He's attacking the sound and smell and feel of the goblin, where his friends say the goblin is, he can still affect the target, even if he can't see it.
You don't need to see something to be able to attack it.
It still won't stop me from hitting, say, my bookcase, or my desk with both of those. Because I know where they're at. Because I can have other people point them out. And they're not even moving around and grunting and bleeding and smelling like an orc. It'd be even easier in that case.
Sight is not the only sense we have. I can perceive things with touch and smell and sound. Especially if those things are monsters trying to kill me and I am a Big Fat Hero capable of doing superhuman things like guiding my attacks with sound.
Minifig
First Post
You have to look at page 272 of your PH1.
Notice what it says there?
You have to target something.
You have to choose what your targeting.
You have to see it.
If you're blinded, you get a -20 perception check to actually see what you say you see.. no matter if it's an enemy or a square off in the distance..
Just because you can hear it doesn't mean that it's not around.. I know this for a fact, in the campaign we're currently playing .. my old character before I changed to a warden had a perception of 20. He couldn't see anything but his insight (also 20), let him know he could hear something.. where was it?
Underground.
You just agreed that MM is a ranged attack.. so.. you have to choose what the ranged attack is going to hit..
Notice what it says there?
You have to target something.
You have to choose what your targeting.
You have to see it.
If you're blinded, you get a -20 perception check to actually see what you say you see.. no matter if it's an enemy or a square off in the distance..
Just because you can hear it doesn't mean that it's not around.. I know this for a fact, in the campaign we're currently playing .. my old character before I changed to a warden had a perception of 20. He couldn't see anything but his insight (also 20), let him know he could hear something.. where was it?
Underground.
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