Getting Combat Challenge More Involved

Xyrlove Woodsoul · Oct 22, 2010

So I'm starting a group soon, and I've been playtesting for months upon months, and it seems that the fighter class feature Combat Challenge rarely gets triggered. There just never seems to be a good reason for an adjacent enemy to move away, or to attack someone else knowing he's going to get whacked in the head if it does so. So instead of trying to think of a 1,000 different cases and circumstances, and to avoid all the lecturing, I'm just wondering, in your games, how often does CC get triggered per encounter, per fighter, on average? Yes, i know it's an abstract question. It's meant to be so.
Also, is there a Dragon article that elaborates on CC that someone can direct me to?

Obryn · Oct 22, 2010

Xyrlove Woodsoul said:
So I'm starting a group soon, and I've been playtesting for months upon months, and it seems that the fighter class feature Combat Challenge rarely gets triggered. There just never seems to be a good reason for an adjacent enemy to move away, or to attack someone else knowing he's going to get whacked in the head if it does so. So instead of trying to think of a 1,000 different cases and circumstances, and to avoid all the lecturing, I'm just wondering, in your games, how often does CC get triggered per encounter, per fighter, on average. Yes, i know it's an abstract question. It's meant to be so.

It triggers as often as you want it to, basically. I'm happy to violate a mark if it's smarter for overall tactics, or if it's roleplay-appropriate.

The real key to a defender, though, is that they're doing their job if their mark isn't getting violated. What's happening if Combat Challenge isn't being triggered? The monster's attacking the Fighter - exactly how the Fighter wants it.

-O

Xyrlove Woodsoul · Oct 22, 2010

Thanks. On average, per encounter, how often does each fighter in your group get to use his Combat Challenge class feature? I'm more so asking a statistical question, not a fluff question. I'll deal with the variables later.

keterys · Oct 22, 2010

Depends how serious the defender's combat challenge is, to a certain extent, and how crazy their own defenses are. There are some fighters I'd probably give a combat challenge to every single round because I've got lots of monsters and it's never worth it for the monsters to dick around uselessly on them instead of taking down a leader or striker.

There are other fighters that... yeah, I'd be real careful of. Or that I'd just shrug and go 'okay, every monster on the map attacks you - including those 3 you didn't mark, along with the 4 you did.' After all, an unconscious defender has no marks

Especially if a fighter has several guys marked, though, it's not that bad for one to shift and charge, leaving the rest free to shift and do something else. I often have lesser monsters trigger combat challenge for bosses in that way.

As a PC, I'll also give the fighter his combat challenge by doing ranged attacks in flank or otherwise triggering OA.

So, yeah, whenever it makes the combat go faster. On either side of the screen

Xyrlove Woodsoul · Oct 22, 2010

Thanks that was helpful.
I'm trying to find a "happy medium." At first, all the defenders in my playtest group (me, myself, and I) were running out of surges, while the rest of the roles still had plenty. But little by little, I've been making subtle changes (like a couple you mentioned) and the discrepancy in surges is reaching a better balance, given that I've been having CC trigger more. But I always run into indecision.
I'm also inclined to have CC triggered more for players who take CC related feats, like Shield Push, Mobile Challenge, etc.
And I make monsters a bit more leary to trigger CC if they are bloodied, if that makes any sense?

zoroaster100 · Oct 22, 2010

In general it seems it has been triggered about once per game session (two or three combats), but generally the DM considers it a mistake when he forgets about the mark and provokes an opportunity attack.

Anathos · Oct 22, 2010

keterys said:
As a PC, I'll also give the fighter his combat challenge by doing ranged attacks in flank or otherwise triggering OA.

That's what Combat Superiority is for: you don't want to provoke an OA from a Fighter because they're unlikely to miss and tend to use d10s or better for damage. Adding the Combat Challenge attack on top of the OA is just going to cause monsters with ranged attacks to shift before attacking, making you miss out on the OA and burning your Immediate action for the round.

To answer Xyrlove's question, the games I've played in generally see Defender mark punishments triggered about every other round. When I DM it's normally because I know that players like having their marks violated but also like feeling that they're doing their jobs as Defenders and I like satisfying both those desires. I'm not certain about the times when I'm a player, but I'm pretty sure that it's because the DM decided that the alternative target was the better one (some sort of condition permitting extra damage or an effect, dropping a PC with very little HP, etc.) and worth the punishment. That said, no matter what happens the Defender is successful: if he's taking the attacks he's doing his job (he's less likely to be hit and can handle it if the blow lands), and if not, then he gets his punishment and the monster takes a -2.

If you see the Defender running out of Healing Surges before everyone else 1) that's something I have never seen before, and 2) there are several solutions to that problem that don't involve house rules. The first of these is the most obvious: have the Defender find ways of increasing the number of Healing Surges he has. There's a general feat that grants 2 extra, and a few racial feats that do the same and stack, or he can increase his Constitution, which also has the benefit of increasing his HP. The second is to prevent him from needing surge healing, the most common way being to increase his defenses. Temp HP, resistances, powers that grant a few HP of healing, Daily healing powers that heal as though spending a Healing Surge and turning Insubstantial all work towards this end. The final way is to just redirect Healing Surges from other party members. There's a level 1 ritual (Comrade's Succor) that does this, as does the Artificer's healing class feature (the first two uses of which are free) and a handful of Utility healing powers.

keterys · Oct 22, 2010

Anathos said:
That's what Combat Superiority is for: you don't want to provoke an OA from a Fighter because they're unlikely to miss and tend to use d10s or better for damage. Adding the Combat Challenge attack on top of the OA is just going to cause monsters with ranged attacks to shift before attacking, making you miss out on the OA and burning your Immediate action for the round.

You misunderstand - as a _player_ I like setting it up for the fighter to get his combat challenge by intentionally triggering opportunity attacks. My infernal warlock was particularly known for walking into flank and doing ranged attacks - Prime Shot plus flank, and if it attacks me the fighter gets an attack back. Sounds good.

brehobit · Oct 22, 2010

I'd say great weapon fighters tend to get CC triggered less often. The punishment for ignoring the mark is greater and their AC isn't that much better than the rest of the party.

A sword-and-board fighter will get triggered less often.

When you are seeing healing surges running out for the fighter, what's his AC relative to the rest of the party? If it's significantly better and it's still happening then I guess the DM is focusing almost everything on the defender on a regular basis. If that happens all the time the fighter should just work on holding back things for a while then let the fresh folks step up for a bit.

Killing the defender isn't a bad idea for the baddies, but the better defenses generally make it hard for them to do.

DEFCON 1 · Oct 22, 2010

For the Fighter in my game... he gets to use CC probably once a session as well. Some times it's because the enemy in question is one that is meant to move around the battlefield (like a skirmisher) and thus I have him do so (even knowing the Fighter might very well stop it). Most times, however, it's due to me forgetting that a particular enemy is Marked, and thus as I try and shift him, the Fighter reminds me of the Mark. And I instituted a rule at my table long ago that says that if I forget Conditions, then I will just accept my punishment and take the hits or miss out on the damage. This gives the Fighter more chances to use CC, plus it keeps him more involved in the game as he keeps his eye on what I'm doing when it's the monster's turns in case I forget things.