Getting Combat Challenge More Involved

[Zaran]

My players purposely trigger opportunity attacks from defender marking attacks. Usually the enemy will jump at a chance at a free attack outside of their own turn even with the -2 or the chance of getting hit from the fighter. Now if they get tagged by the defender they may not fall for it a second time.

 

[Shin Okada]

I guess it will depend largely on both encounter design and each DM's way of controlling monsters. And also depends on the configuration of each party.

As a DM, I usually let trigger CC at least about once per encounter, I guess.

When a monster has something better to do than to continue whacking the fighter, I will let the monster do that. Say, shift and charge onto more fragile PC, sound a gong, run away, trigger a trap and such.

 

[the Jester]

So I'm starting a group soon, and I've been playtesting for months upon months, and it seems that the fighter class feature Combat Challenge rarely gets triggered. There just never seems to be a good reason for an adjacent enemy to move away, or to attack someone else knowing he's going to get whacked in the head if it does so. So instead of trying to think of a 1,000 different cases and circumstances, and to avoid all the lecturing, I'm just wondering, in your games, how often does CC get triggered per encounter, per fighter, on average?

First off, let me just list a few good reasons for a bad guy marked by a fighter to try to move away:

• There is another pc dishing major damage to an ally
• The monster is willing to gamble the fighter will miss
• The monster has a goal involving more than the pcs
• The monster is a ranged controller or artillery and needs to open the distance to use its best powers
• There is terrain advantageous to the monster
• The monster is trying to lure the fighter into a trap or tactical disadvantage
• The monster is "programmed" rather than thinking and mindlessly obeys its instructions
• The monster is trying to flee and figures the fighter will slay it if it stays where it is

I'm sure there are plenty of other good reasons for it too!

Regarding the frequency per fighter per fight- I've never run 4e with multiple fighters; when we had multiple defenders, they were different classes. That said...

As far as how often combat challenge gets triggered, it really depends on the foes. Mindless enemies- oozes, skeletons, etc- and tactically inept creatures- human peasants, etc- are much more prone to triggering CC because they don't know better, act out of fear or have no sense of self-preservation. I'd guess 2 or more times per combat with these types of things.

Against intelligent or savvy foes, the question is more complex. If they are out to get the wizard in the back, it's quite possible that they will willingly trigger OAs in trying to get to him. In another fight, they might have an artillery line and several defender-types of their own to block the pcs' approach, and they might thus never trigger an OA at all. But on average, I would guess... about 1 CC trigger per fight on average against these types of enemies?

 

[TikkchikFenTikktikk]

Every time an adjacent monster doesn't move away for fear of getting wacked, Combat Challenge is being used.

No, the rules text might not trigger, but that does not mean the feature is not having its desired effect.

 

[Jhaelen]

As a DM, I usually let trigger CC at least about once per encounter, I guess.

When a monster has something better to do than to continue whacking the fighter, I will let the monster do that. Say, shift and charge onto more fragile PC, sound a gong, run away, trigger a trap and such.

In my game it's typically triggered once or twice per encounter. The first time it happens most often because I generally assume monsters will not know that they cannot shift away, since it is not a standard consequence of being marked.

And it typically happens a second time when I don't want the monster the fighter pc marked to be locked up fighting the fighter. Generally, the fighter will take on the nastiest enemy, often an Elite monster, so unless the enemy has a good chance to down the fighter really fast, it's preferable to take another hit and then go messing up a squishier pc.

 

[Mapache]

So I'm starting a group soon, and I've been playtesting for months upon months, and it seems that the fighter class feature Combat Challenge rarely gets triggered. There just never seems to be a good reason for an adjacent enemy to move away, or to attack someone else knowing he's going to get whacked in the head if it does so. So instead of trying to think of a 1,000 different cases and circumstances, and to avoid all the lecturing, I'm just wondering, in your games, how often does CC get triggered per encounter, per fighter, on average? Yes, i know it's an abstract question. It's meant to be so.
Also, is there a Dragon article that elaborates on CC that someone can direct me to?

Combat Challenge will trigger about once every encounter or two for my Fighter, nearly always from someone shifting so they can get away from me. Someone provoking a plain old OA, though, has only happened to me once in six levels of play under different LFR GMs. It really is that bad of an idea.

 

[Mr. Wilson]

As Jester said, it all depends on the Fighter.

The Fighter in the 4E game I'm running is a warforged great weapon fighter with a Mordenkrad and Warforged Superiority.

Combat challenge may trigger once a fight, but once intelligent foes see him land a 2d6b1 + prone attack, they decide it makes more sense to concentrate on the angry metallic man if he gets in their face.

And that's fine with the fighter, as that was why he built it that way.

 

[MarkB]

It was recently pointed out to me on WotC's 4e boards that the only condition the Fighter initially inflicts on an opponent when challenging them is an ordinary, bog-standard Marked condition - so under 4e rules, the target doesn't actually know he'll get whacked for attacking someone else or shifting until he experiences it.

That said, the purpose of Combat Challenge, IMO, is not to punish an opponent for disengaging from the fighter - it's to discourage that opponent from disengaging from the fighter. Any time an opponent who'd rather be doing something else continues attacking the fighter, Combat Challenge is doing its job.

 

[jbear]

As a DM I tend to violate marks at least a couple of times in a combat. Apart from letting the defender enjoy making use of their abilities to punish said violation, there are three other main reasons I do this:

-To smash the party's tactical formation to pieces. Once you get past the wall of melee PCs and crunch into the ranged fragile PCs, a fun, dynamic, exciting and dangerous element is added. You have to spread the hurt around!

-Because narratively it is more fun to play monsters like monsters not chess pieces. Heck ... I'm the DM! I never LOSE... becuase what is WINNING? SO if I can't lose or win, well then it must all come down to excitement and fun. The sorceror just dropped a critical ray of Smackdown on the Torturer's pet Scarybeast ... you can bet he's strolling through those opportunity attacks, ignoring marks left right and center, because all he cares about now is tearing that witch limb from limb!

-Also because that way 100hp creatures die faster, battle moves more quickly, people are involved out of turn. With the increase in damage monsters are brutal enough now that you can drop a PC from Heathy to dying in a round without breaking a sweat. So, leaping between the fighter and the ranger, skirting past the cleric and pouncing on the wizard drinking tea in the back is well worth it!

As a player, my experience differs.

I play two different online games. I play a fighter/runepriest and a fighter respectively. In the first of the two the DM was new to 4e when we began, and so he provoked Combat Challenge a lot, but more by mistake than for any narrative reason. When he caught on to how punishing a fighter can be when you make that mistake to often, the frequency that I have been using it has dwindled to nothing. So I accepted that I was doing what I was meant to by becoming the primary target and and focused on building on my defense. As a hammer fighter there are loads of stuff that work with OAs and combat challenge but I won't bother picking up those feats because they'll never come into play.

In the second game, the DM plays his creatures differently. He seems to prefer playing them along the lines of what he imagines they would do as opposed to playing them tactically 100%. So in the last fight he would have triggered Combat Challenge at least 3 maybe four times. Then again it's a dark sun campaign, and every fight is really touch and go whether we survive or not, so it is a luxury the deadly monsters provide for him. In the other campaign the DM has been largely using MM1 monsters, 1 encounter/day scenarios and boy can you feel the difference. So I guess that may be why he is more protective of his creatures because he feels like he is struggling to challenge us sufficiently.

So perhaps the level of challenge the encounters are posing upon the PCs is relative to how often a DM feels willing enough to deliberately blunder for the greater glory of the adventure.

 

[jbear]

Oh, and for a nice little combo check out the awesome feat: Mobile Challenge. It allows you to shift 1 after a successful hit with Combat Challenge attack.

So, imagine what happens if you decide to ignore your defensive duties momentarily and go on the hunt to bring down the enemy group's spellcaster:

Hit or miss you mark him. So if he shifts away to cast... Bam ... Combat Challenge! And then Shift 1 square after him. Which means if he casts he provokes an Opportunity Attack as well! If he casts in your face: OAtk. If he walks away: OAtk and stop him in his tracks. Fighters vs Ranged attackers = lose lose for them!