The Best Class/Build for My Party's Leader?

Prestidigitalis said:

I'm intrigued by the idea of a standard-issue Half Elf Valorous Bard taking the Warlord power Guide the Strike for the Dilettante power. That could be a quick route to high damage if you have an optimized ranged striker in the party. It's a ranged power, so you have to worry about positioning to use it well, but it adds a lot of flexibility.

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Since you're going to be in melee a Ranged Dilettante is not the safest idea. Actually Half-Elf ValBard is really nice because you can take the Warlock At-Will that counts as an MBA. Through heroic this means one/encounter you can actually make an opportunity attack/charge/etc., that isn't a total failure. If your DM ever figures out your OA is 4+ points behind your regular attacks to hit and -4 on the damage (and the gap is growing) you won't be much of an impediment. Add in the fact that the Warlock MBA slides 1 and you have a winner.

Retreater said:

So am I reading correctly that the consensus is a cleric for healing and melee combat abilities?

If I'm going to go cleric, how do I best optimize that class? I know that the PHB1 cleric is woefully underpowered compared to other classes from later sources (primarily due to MAD issues).

Should I forget making a PHB1 cleric and go straight for one of the Essentials builds?

I'm kinda nervous about it. I'm new to 4E and I feel at least partially responsible for the demise of the first party (my defender didn't do his job and everyone died). I'm also new to the group and don't want them to think that I'm dead weight in the party.

Retreater

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First advice is play what you want to play. ANY of the common suggestions here will be fun and will perform well in the intended role.

Specifically though the STR cleric is actually not at all underpowered. Pick a race with a STR/WIS racial bonus and you're in very good shape. Even if you go with a STR/CHA bonus you're getting excellent synergy. Dragonborn and Dwarf will both work really well, as will many others.

You have one of the very best at-will leader powers in the game with Righteous Brand. Pick up a Crusader's Weapon and a Brooch of Healing, or switch to a big nasty blade, you can pretty much take most feats that a fighter with a similar weapon load would, plus you have access to plenty of fine powers. Many of them don't really rely a huge amount on Wisdom or Cha to function. For instance Spiritual Weapon works great for a melee STR cleric. Pick a relevant domain and you can gain some nice extras.

Not really sure where the idea that STR cleric was 'MAD' really comes from, nor the idea that they were super gimped in PHB1. They weren't the most heavily supported class, but they have a LOT of weapon user support to fall back on and enough powers to do really well (just not a vast amount of choice). DP certainly fixes that if it is a concern. Basically you have a melee combatant only very slightly behind the fighters and rangers AND a very very fine healing build with some excellent combat buffs.

STR clerics aren't the sexiest of classes, they are VERY much like the old AD&D cleric, but they are a very solid build. Of course the Warpriest gets to double on Wisdom, but has VERY few power choices. It is a real tossup between them and the flavor is really pretty much the same. If you like tinkering go with the STR version, if you don't, then the WP is probably the best.

AbdulAlhazred said:

First advice is play what you want to play. ANY of the common suggestions here will be fun and will perform well in the intended role.

Specifically though the STR cleric is actually not at all underpowered. Pick a race with a STR/WIS racial bonus and you're in very good shape. Even if you go with a STR/CHA bonus you're getting excellent synergy. Dragonborn and Dwarf will both work really well, as will many others.

You have one of the very best at-will leader powers in the game with Righteous Brand. Pick up a Crusader's Weapon and a Brooch of Healing, or switch to a big nasty blade, you can pretty much take most feats that a fighter with a similar weapon load would, plus you have access to plenty of fine powers. Many of them don't really rely a huge amount on Wisdom or Cha to function. For instance Spiritual Weapon works great for a melee STR cleric. Pick a relevant domain and you can gain some nice extras.

Not really sure where the idea that STR cleric was 'MAD' really comes from, nor the idea that they were super gimped in PHB1. They weren't the most heavily supported class, but they have a LOT of weapon user support to fall back on and enough powers to do really well (just not a vast amount of choice). DP certainly fixes that if it is a concern. Basically you have a melee combatant only very slightly behind the fighters and rangers AND a very very fine healing build with some excellent combat buffs.

STR clerics aren't the sexiest of classes, they are VERY much like the old AD&D cleric, but they are a very solid build. Of course the Warpriest gets to double on Wisdom, but has VERY few power choices. It is a real tossup between them and the flavor is really pretty much the same. If you like tinkering go with the STR version, if you don't, then the WP is probably the best.

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The errata'd Righteous Brand actually can't really be defined as one of the best Leader powers in the game anymore, sadly, particularly as it is worse then Wis-Cleric At-Wills.

Not really sure where the idea that STR cleric was 'MAD' really comes from, nor the idea that they were super gimped in PHB1.

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The problem is that all of the "good" attacks are based off Wisdom or Charisma. But then the damage is +Strength bonus. Or I have a Strength-based attack that grants temporary HP based on my Charisma bonus (+1) which is almost useless compared to the +5 I could get from a bard.

For a PHB1 cleric to be as good as any PHB3 class, you have to have high scores in Str, Wis, and Cha. On top of that, being forced to have high Wis and Cha is sort of like wasting your ability scores anyway, because they are reduntant bonuses on Will Defense.

Unless I'm just not understanding character creation, which is a possibility.

Spreading around the ability score bonuses means that your PHB1 cleric will probably have a +3 in his highest ability score. An Essentials cleric will probably have a +4 or +5 in his highest ability score. A big difference at the current level (3rd).

The problem with the Essentials cleric is that they are ... a little on the boring side ... and they're not on the working CB.

Retreater

A PHB Strength cleric should be flat out Str/Cha. The strength powers should mostly use Cha as their 'kicker' stat for extra effects. That said there's a cleric class feature (healer's lore) that does focus on Wis. In my opinion you're best off just dumping Wis, anyway, and taking some Con/Int or Dex. Powers that use Wis should genearlly be self contained (i.e. I don't think there should be a power that cares about both Wis and Str, and it if it it's a mistake).

You're not as bad off in NADs as the Wis cleric, since you actually get plenty from just splitting your stats. Wis clerics also use Cha (and healer's lore should most likely have done so as well, or there should be an alternate feature for Strength clerics).

Strength cleric is one of the most under-supported builds, though. As much as people complain about runepriests I bet most actually have just as many if not more options than Str clerics. It's a workable build, but undersupported. Still comes with a fantastic at will, at least.

Aulirophile said:

The errata'd Righteous Brand actually can't really be defined as one of the best Leader powers in the game anymore, sadly, particularly as it is worse then Wis-Cleric At-Wills.

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Uh, granting a +4 power bonus to attack rolls to an ally is worse than what? lol. Sorry, this is just not true. RB is no longer FLAT OUT BROKEN, but it is still fantastically effective right up to the top of epic tier. Very few leader at-wills are competitive with it in the buffing department.

Retreater said:

The problem is that all of the "good" attacks are based off Wisdom or Charisma. But then the damage is +Strength bonus. Or I have a Strength-based attack that grants temporary HP based on my Charisma bonus (+1) which is almost useless compared to the +5 I could get from a bard.

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Except this again simply isn't true. I don't know where you get that from. IF you have a high CHA then there are absolutely some wonderful powers to leverage that with, and IF you have a high WIS there are also wonderful powers to leverage THAT with. Having DMed a group with a well-made STR cleric in it all through heroic and into paragon I've witnessed it in action. A STR/WIS strength cleric build kicks butt and has no problem with dumping CHA to a tertiary. In fact it isn't even really worth bothering with CHA in this case, just drop the points into CON, you'll be happy for the hit points.

For a PHB1 cleric to be as good as any PHB3 class, you have to have high scores in Str, Wis, and Cha. On top of that, being forced to have high Wis and Cha is sort of like wasting your ability scores anyway, because they are reduntant bonuses on Will Defense.

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See above. Play a STR/WIS cleric and you'll change your mind on this. CHA is not a vital attribute for this build at all.

Unless I'm just not understanding character creation, which is a possibility.

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No, I don't think you're failing to understand character creation, I think you are just highly overestimating the requirement for a high CHA with this build.

Spreading around the ability score bonuses means that your PHB1 cleric will probably have a +3 in his highest ability score. An Essentials cleric will probably have a +4 or +5 in his highest ability score. A big difference at the current level (3rd).

The problem with the Essentials cleric is that they are ... a little on the boring side ... and they're not on the working CB.

Retreater

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Again, there's no need to spread anything around. You simply have to take the right powers. With a good WIS you can take certain WIS based powers, but you just mainly concentrate on the STR based powers with WIS riders.

Just consider for instance a level 1 STR cleric with an 18 STR/16 WIS, you have Righteous Brand and Lance of Faith as excellent at-will choices. LoF will be 1 less to-hit vs RB, but it targets reflex, so it is actually the more accurate of the 2 powers on average, where's the lack of support for choices there? Healing Strike is a great level 1 encounter power, but all 4 of those in PHB1 are perfectly usable (wow with Cause Fear you might make the enemy move away only speed+1, but it is a crappy power anyway and the difference is minor). Level 1 daily powers? The choices again are basically any of them you want to use in PHB1, CHA isn't even a rider for any of them.

I don't disagree that there are some VERY good powers that rely on CHA to be really effective, but they aren't the only good choices. At high heroic tier PHB1 gets a bit more sparse, but you still have choices and DP certainly provides good additional options. A WIS/CHA cleric surely has more higher level power choices, but not by as much as people seem to think, nor are those choices better.

No, STR cleric is IMHO the strongest cleric build there is when you actually look close. It MAY be slightly eclipsed now by Warpriest, but it absolutely competes with and IMHO blows the doors off the laser cleric.

Aulirophile said:

Since you're going to be in melee a Ranged Dilettante is not the safest idea.

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First, there will be times that isn't a problem: at the start of the encounter before you have closed to melee; after you have killed an enemy but before you have moved on to the next one; when the only adjacent enemies can't take OAs due to being dazed; etc. At these times, having the option to hand your attack off to someone else who can better use it adds a lot of flexibility. It's also good for those times when you are up against a flying creature, etc.

However, if you want a "safer" approach, you can always take Commander's Strike. A Valorous Bard won't get much of a damage bonus, but every little bit helps. (For a Cunning Bard -- wow) If you are working with an MBA-based Essentials class like the Knight, Slayer or Thief, you might end up granting them the attack far more often than you use your own at-wills.

Aulirophile said:

Actually Half-Elf ValBard is really nice because you can take the Warlock At-Will that counts as an MBA. Through heroic this means one/encounter you can actually make an opportunity attack/charge/etc., that isn't a total failure. If your DM ever figures out your OA is 4+ points behind your regular attacks to hit and -4 on the damage (and the gap is growing) you won't be much of an impediment. Add in the fact that the Warlock MBA slides 1 and you have a winner.

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Sure, that works, though you could also just take Melee Training. I'd say that the Dilettante power is worth a lot more than a single feat, at least once you have hit paragon tier.

AbdulAlhazred said:

Uh, granting a +4 power bonus to attack rolls to an ally is worse than what? lol. Sorry, this is just not true. RB is no longer FLAT OUT BROKEN, but it is still fantastically effective right up to the top of epic tier. Very few leader at-wills are competitive with it in the buffing department.

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+3 (not 4) to one melee ally vs +2 to everyone in your party. Which of these two is better? How about a +1 regardless of if you hit or miss to one ally or yourself, and you don't need to worry about declaring it in advance? How about a +1 bonus, flat out, that you can increase to +3 under certain circumstances that applies to everyone?

Mathematically, all of those are better. They are all Cleric At-Wills. I'm not even comparing RB to other Leader At-Wills here, just the things it is legitimately competing against. And in that competition it loses.

Aulirophile said:

+3 (not 4) to one melee ally vs +2 to everyone in your party. Which of these two is better? How about a +1 regardless of if you hit or miss to one ally or yourself, and you don't need to worry about declaring it in advance? How about a +1 bonus, flat out, that you can increase to +3 under certain circumstances that applies to everyone?

Mathematically, all of those are better. They are all Cleric At-Wills. I'm not even comparing RB to other Leader At-Wills here, just the things it is legitimately competing against. And in that competition it loses.

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When you need someone to hit the target? The highest bonus is the best. RB also does damage, unlike Astral Seal. I don't know what the last power you're referring to is, but I'd note that +3 is a good bit more than +1 and WILL often be better. So I don't agree that "all of those are better". I don't agree that ANY of them are flat out better. They may be better in some situations, but that isn't exactly news. I'd also point out that you can quite happily compare RB to ALL other leader at-will powers, it STILL comes out VERY well. I'll match my STR cleric against any other leader build in a general sense and it will stand up. I'm not claiming it is incontrovertibly the best leader in the game, that's a pretty hard thing to judge and is highly subjective. What I am saying is it is in no way an inferior option. I'm by far not alone in holding that opinion. It is a build that is often overlooked. When you start listing out possibilities for melee leader classes however it should definitely be right up there on the list. Anyone that has seen it competently played will see that.

AbdulAlhazred said:

When you need someone to hit the target? The highest bonus is the best. RB also does damage, unlike Astral Seal. I don't know what the last power you're referring to is, but I'd note that +3 is a good bit more than +1 and WILL often be better. So I don't agree that "all of those are better". I don't agree that ANY of them are flat out better. They may be better in some situations, but that isn't exactly news. I'd also point out that you can quite happily compare RB to ALL other leader at-will powers, it STILL comes out VERY well. I'll match my STR cleric against any other leader build in a general sense and it will stand up. I'm not claiming it is incontrovertibly the best leader in the game, that's a pretty hard thing to judge and is highly subjective. What I am saying is it is in no way an inferior option. I'm by far not alone in holding that opinion. It is a build that is often overlooked. When you start listing out possibilities for melee leader classes however it should definitely be right up there on the list. Anyone that has seen it competently played will see that.

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Actually Astral Seal does more damage. The increased hit chance combined with the minus to defenses serves as a greater average increase to party DPR. That is with At-Wills, doesn't factor in the healing or the fact that daily/encounter powers might be used. So Astral Seal 1, RB 0. And, mathematically, each additional point of +hit is worth less in terms of total percentage then the previous one, so no, a big bonus to one person is not in any way better then a smaller bonus to everyone.

+1 to everyone (including yourself) is better then +3 to one person. Particularly as that must person must be melee and must be able to engage the target on his next turn and it doesn't increase your chance to hit the target at all, just an allies. That isn't even an option with RB. So RB still loses.

I'm not saying Str Clerics are horrible, necessarily, but their support by comparison is extremely lackluster and RB is not a good At-Will in comparison to other Cleric At-Wills, it is mathematically inferior to three other options.

And it really doesn't compare to other leader At-Wills. Magic Weapon? Not even close. Intuitive Strike I concede is comparable, you lose stat mod damage, it is +2 instead of +3, and the attacker needs CA, but you don't need to pre-pick the ally who benefits and it is more accurate since it is a weapon attack vs a NAD. Guiding Strike is only situationally better, since the defense you debuff must be one that two party members will attack (or one+yourself, actually gaining a benefit to yourself is fun), though if you can satisfy that it is better. So RB might, might, be better then Shaman, Ardent, or Runepriest At-Wills (and I'm only conceding this because I know very little about those classes). Three of the least supported Leader classes. Yeah, that is a "strong" option.

You can like RB all you want, but "many people hold this opinion" is not a compelling argument compared to, you know, math. If you personally prefer RB (for whatever reason) that is one thing. There are many powers that people think of as fun. But to generally reccomend such powers is flawed when superior powers exist.