The Immortal's Handbook: Gods & Monsters (unfinished)

Upper_Krust · May 23, 2011

dark_mage said:
`Sup U_K!

Hey dark_mage!

Thank you for your continued attention!

Happy to help.

Yeah! Too bad it's not d20 ^^

Or 4E.

The paralels between Apsu and Uranus led me to think about a "category" of Elder beigns, Proto-Titans if you will, more Eldrtich Abominations than proper gods. I'll scour other mythologies when I have time for other potential members.

There are lots out there.

Speaking of which, what is your take on the general origin of gods? I remember reading somewhere, not sure ATM but I think it was a PS book, about a "rumor" that most, if not all, the human gods were humans who ascended a long time ago, so long that they've almost forgotten about their past selves. Sounds interesting to me but I'm not sure if I will consider it for my Campaign.

I don't see one idea thats going to fit every campaign - I think each DM should decide this for themselves.

Interesting, but what is the criteria you use to designate each one? What makes one a Cosmic Afterbirth and not a Pantheon DEstroyer?

Actually my mistake:

Godslayer = Intermediate
Cosmic Umbilical/Pantheon Enemy = Greater (typically a dragon)
Cosmic Afterbirth/Patheon Destroyer = Elder

A Pantheon Destroyer is one fated to (or with the power to) destroy a Pantheon.

Point taken. In this case and since I want to keep some continuity with Planescape canon, I'm thinking of having the "new" Earth goddess, Belet-ili, be a result of the merging of Ki and Ninhursag.

Okay.

What I meant is that if you thought any of the alignment choices for the pantheon in L&L were innapropiate.

Not so much Legends & Lore but obviously Tiamat really should be Chaotic Evil not Lawful Evil.

Perhaps I need to give it a second reading, but I failed to see how Enlil and Anu can be considered Antagonistic (barring Anu's almost-but-not-quite-a-Cosmic-Horror traits)

He's a deposed and defeated figurehead - thats enough to make anyone bitter.

Perhaps. I was thinking of them baing at least DR 0, from the 3e Deities & Demigods, as I recall it beign the "default" DR for godly scions. What I'm not sure is if DR:0, aka Hero-deity status, grants immortality or not.

There is no Divine Rank 0 in Ascension.

Disciple = DR 1
Prophet = DR 2
Hero-deity = DR 3
Quasi-deity = DR 4
Demi-deity = DR 6
Lesser = DR 8
Inter = DR 12
Greater = DR 16
Elder = DR 24
etc.

Besides, if I'm not mistaken, Heracles was ascended into full godhood after his death, wasn't he? I imagined something similar could have happened to Gilgamesh.

Absolutely but maybe we are encountering Gilgamesh before he died.

Whoa! That means you'll have 21+ deities in the pantheon! How many Greater deities do you place, or do you leave the Greater status solely to the Head of the Pantheon?

Greater Deity = 1 (2 in Duality = Persian, 3 in Trinity = Hindu)
Inter = 1 per alignment
Lesser = 1 per alignment
Demi = up to 99
Quasi = up to 999
Hero = up to 9999

In this case, I did not set myself to fulfill some quota, I merely took the gods as they were presented in L&L and On Hallowed Ground, and went from the assumption that Marduk was now the Head of the Pantheon. I took it to mean most of the other gods "donated" some status to him, making him one of only 3 Greater deities in the pantheon; the other two were Belet-ili (her origins, plus she kept herself pretty much isolated from godly politics, and her status and worship as Earth Goddess were enough to secure her rank) and Ishtar (as a wildly popular deity, I assumed the size of her worship would be enough to keep her in Greater rank). The rest of the deities markes as Greater were "demoted" to Intermediate, and the Lesser were kept as is.

For me only the Pantheon Head is a greater god, all other 1E Greater gods are intermediate.

I'm curious as to which other deities, and in which aligments, would you include for the pantheon. Off the top of my head, I got 13 and that's counting Dahak/Kingu, whom you won't be considering as part of the pantheon.

Here was my initial list (Pre-Anu defeat)

Greater
Anu = LN

Inter
Marduk = LG
Enki = NG
Shamash = CG

Enlil = LN
Nin-hursaga = N
Ishtar = CN

Inanna = LE
Ereshkigal = NE
Anshar = CE

Lesser
Girru = LG
Nanna-sin = NG
Ramman = CG

Tammuz = LN
Ki = N
Mummu = CN

Druaga = LE
Nergal = NE
Namtar = CE

I also had a list of about 15 Demigods that needed a bit or sorting through, the heroes I previously listed, some anti-heroes: Nimrod and Asarluhhi, various monsters such as: Anzu, Labbu and Sibuttu

I'd also like to know what you make of the Anu-Enlil-Marduk relationship.

Post Anu-defeat...

Marduk = the hero, the good
Enlil = the coward, the bad
Anu = the defeated, the ugly

dark_mage · May 24, 2011

Upper_Krust said:
Hey dark_mage!

Hello again! ^_^

There are lots out there.

I currently have the Egyptian, Greek and Norse pantheons in the backburner. Should be interesting to see what I can come up with ^^

Actually my mistake:

Godslayer = Intermediate
Cosmic Umbilical/Pantheon Enemy = Greater (typically a dragon)
Cosmic Afterbirth/Patheon Destroyer = Elder

A Pantheon Destroyer is one fated to (or with the power to) destroy a Pantheon.

Ah, I get it now. So I guess the Godslayer should be someone with the power to kill gods one-on-one, am I right?

What I still don't get is the umbilical, what's his/her raison d'être?

Not so much Legends & Lore but obviously Tiamat really should be Chaotic Evil not Lawful Evil.

Though I agree with you on this, I think I'll be keeping Tiamat as LE, since I've tied her to other things that won't work as a CE

He's a deposed and defeated figurehead - thats enough to make anyone bitter.

You know, I didn't quite got the vibe from Anu as deposed/bitter. Enlil on the other hand...

There is no Divine Rank 0 in Ascension.

Disciple = DR 1
Prophet = DR 2
Hero-deity = DR 3
Quasi-deity = DR 4
Demi-deity = DR 6
Lesser = DR 8
Inter = DR 12
Greater = DR 16
Elder = DR 24
etc.

Apologies. I was working under 3E D&D. Once I get some cash flowing I'll be sure to take a look at Ascension ^^;

Absolutely but maybe we are encountering Gilgamesh before he died.

True

Greater Deity = 1 (2 in Duality = Persian, 3 in Trinity = Hindu)
Inter = 1 per alignment
Lesser = 1 per alignment
Demi = up to 99
Quasi = up to 999
Hero = up to 9999

For me only the Pantheon Head is a greater god, all other 1E Greater gods are intermediate.

I get that now. Must be some crowded divine realms ^^

This brought to mind: do you consider the Olympians a Triumvirate (Zeus-Poseidon-Hades), or is Zeus the Head Honcho?

Here was my initial list (Pre-Anu defeat)

Greater
Anu = LN

Inter
Marduk = LG
Enki = NG
Shamash = CG

Enlil = LN
Nin-hursaga = N
Ishtar = CN

Inanna = LE
Ereshkigal = NE
Anshar = CE

Lesser
Girru = LG
Nanna-sin = NG
Ramman = CG

Tammuz = LN
Ki = N
Mummu = CN

Druaga = LE
Nergal = NE
Namtar = CE

I also had a list of about 15 Demigods that needed a bit or sorting through, the heroes I previously listed, some anti-heroes: Nimrod and Asarluhhi, various monsters such as: Anzu, Labbu and Sibuttu

I see what you mean now. Though I don't agree entirely on Inanna and Ishtar as separate entities (same issue as Ki/Ninhursag, only worse IMO)
Still an interesting rule of thumb to create pantheons. And it does give the "Greater" status something special. Previosuly it felt a bit diluted with the Intermediate one.

Post Anu-defeat...

Marduk = the hero, the good
Enlil = the coward, the bad
Anu = the defeated, the ugly

Anu didn't struck me as someone defeated. To me, he feels like a very "by the book" character, so he honored his agreement with Marduk (mind you that I'm assuming he had already step down in favour of Enlil), and supports him, solely based on the principle of Law. An interesting idea would be having Enlil as a "in the middle", with both Anu and Marduk going over his head, and a bit resentful of beign forced to abdicate in favor of Marduk.

Alzrius · May 24, 2011

Bear in mind that Nimrod is already in the IH Bestiary, being an akalich.

Upper_Krust · May 25, 2011

dark_mage said:
Hello again! ^_^

Howdy amigo!

I currently have the Egyptian, Greek and Norse pantheons in the backburner. Should be interesting to see what I can come up with ^^

There'll be a lot of Egyptian material in the Serpent Riders module and the "Against the Reptile God" adventure series in general.

Ah, I get it now. So I guess the Godslayer should be someone with the power to kill gods one-on-one, am I right?

Somethin like that...a bit like a unique Abomination, Fenris, Ma-Yuan etc.

What I still don't get is the umbilical, what's his/her raison d'être?

An umbilical cord tied to the birth of a Pantheon. The cord is sybolic of the dragon.

Though I agree with you on this, I think I'll be keeping Tiamat as LE, since I've tied her to other things that won't work as a CE

Okay.

You know, I didn't quite got the vibe from Anu as deposed/bitter. Enlil on the other hand...

Maybe I read too much between the lines...and its been a good while since I read those parts to be fair.

Apologies. I was working under 3E D&D. Once I get some cash flowing I'll be sure to take a look at Ascension ^^;

Well its not a great effort (by my own admission), but there is some useful stuff in there if you seek to play immortals with 3E.

I get that now. Must be some crowded divine realms ^^

Depends on how many planets you assume populate the cosmos. If all the gods come from one planet and there is only one planet then the number or power (or both) of the gods will be diminished.

This brought to mind: do you consider the Olympians a Triumvirate (Zeus-Poseidon-Hades), or is Zeus the Head Honcho?

I'd say Zeus is top dog. I would have Poseidon and Hades as the next two most powerful though.

I see what you mean now. Though I don't agree entirely on Inanna and Ishtar as separate entities (same issue as Ki/Ninhursag, only worse IMO)
Still an interesting rule of thumb to create pantheons. And it does give the "Greater" status something special. Previosuly it felt a bit diluted with the Intermediate one.

Yes the inclusion of an Intermediate level becomes pointless if everyone skips it to become a greater god.

Anu didn't struck me as someone defeated. To me, he feels like a very "by the book" character, so he honored his agreement with Marduk (mind you that I'm assuming he had already step down in favour of Enlil), and supports him, solely based on the principle of Law. An interesting idea would be having Enlil as a "in the middle", with both Anu and Marduk going over his head, and a bit resentful of beign forced to abdicate in favor of Marduk.

Well if your timeframe is post-Anu's defeat then is curious to ponder exactly what Anu's role is at all.

Upper_Krust · May 25, 2011

Ahoy there Alzrius mate!

Alzrius said:
Bear in mind that Nimrod is already in the IH Bestiary, being an akalich.

True but thats after his attempt to challenge the gods. Something closer to the mythology probably would have detailed him before that.

dark_mage · May 27, 2011

Upper_Krust said:
Howdy amigo!

Hi! You know, all this talk about gods and pantheons got me into playing Age of Mythology again ^^

An umbilical cord tied to the birth of a Pantheon. The cord is sybolic of the dragon.

Got it

Maybe I read too much between the lines...and its been a good while since I read those parts to be fair.

PotMV mostly stated Anu held little interest in human/worldly affair, and apparently didn't object at all at Marduk's gambit, as he was more interested in Apsu and Tiamat's defeat/containment.

Well its not a great effort (by my own admission), but there is some useful stuff in there if you seek to play immortals with 3E.

Will check it out then ^^

Depends on how many planets you assume populate the cosmos. If all the gods come from one planet and there is only one planet then the number or power (or both) of the gods will be diminished.

Well, since I'm using the Great Wheel Cosmology, I think I'll have to adapt some things.

Yes the inclusion of an Intermediate level becomes pointless if everyone skips it to become a greater god.

Indeed. In fact, I think a lot of the Greater gods from L&L and OHG should be bumped down to Intermediate.

Well if your timeframe is post-Anu's defeat then is curious to ponder exactly what Anu's role is at all.

Actually I haven't decided if I'll place it before or after Marduk's ascendancy. I got the idea from PotMV, but further research into myths made me think the inconsistencies in Anu-Enlil-Marduk come mostly from posterior interpretations/revisionism. Since Marduk was the god of Babylon, he was made into King of the Gods to justify Babylon's dominance. The Assyrians didn't even feature Marduk in their myth, his place taken by their god Assur, whom they identified with Babylonian Anshar. And it's likely, since no Sumerian copies of the Enuma Elish remain, that the original sumerian myths feature Enlil as the hero and slayer of Tiamar.

Upper_Krust · May 29, 2011

Howdy dark_mage!

dark_mage said:
Hi! You know, all this talk about gods and pantheons got me into playing Age of Mythology again ^^

I rarely get to play videogames at the moment, maybe about 10 hours worth a month. Last game I played through was Castlevania: Lords of Shadow (great game) which took about 2 months to complete.

Its interesting seeing the parallels between videogame design and rpgs and I actually enjoy buying Game Guide books to better analyse mechanical aspects. I own a number of game guides for which I don't even have the game.

Its amusing buying it in the store and the clerk will be all "Stuck at Final Fantasy XIII eh?" and I'll be all "Actually I don't even own this game" and inside I'll be thinking "I've been playing videogames since Space Invaders, probably longer than this young pup has been alive".

PotMV mostly stated Anu held little interest in human/worldly affair, and apparently didn't object at all at Marduk's gambit, as he was more interested in Apsu and Tiamat's defeat/containment.

It was also interesting reading that Tiamat didn't want Apsu released because she was so much weaker than before.

Well, since I'm using the Great Wheel Cosmology, I think I'll have to adapt some things.

Its just a matter of wondering how many worshippers each deity has. I mean if there are 200 gods worshipped in your world and the population is only 200 million, most will only have thousands of worshippers.

I remember I had a system for working out the Levels of gods based on their Earthly worshipper total (at the peak points in history).

Indeed. In fact, I think a lot of the Greater gods from L&L and OHG should be bumped down to Intermediate.

Nearly all of them.

I think in Greyhawk maybe Nerull, Pelor, Istus, Boccob and Cyndor are probably (relatively weak) Greater Deities.

Actually I haven't decided if I'll place it before or after Marduk's ascendancy. I got the idea from PotMV, but further research into myths made me think the inconsistencies in Anu-Enlil-Marduk come mostly from posterior interpretations/revisionism. Since Marduk was the god of Babylon, he was made into King of the Gods to justify Babylon's dominance. The Assyrians didn't even feature Marduk in their myth, his place taken by their god Assur, whom they identified with Babylonian Anshar. And it's likely, since no Sumerian copies of the Enuma Elish remain, that the original sumerian myths feature Enlil as the hero and slayer of Tiamar.

Each city state of the area probably had its own version of the legend.

I remember reading recently an interesting article on the ten plagues of Egypt and how they exactly paralleled the aftereffects of a volcanic eruption (the Santorini/Atlantis eruption IIRC) on the area.

dark_mage · Jun 1, 2011

Upper_Krust said:
Howdy dark_mage!

Hi ^^

I rarely get to play videogames at the moment, maybe about 10 hours worth a month. Last game I played through was Castlevania: Lords of Shadow (great game) which took about 2 months to complete.

Well, I don't know if you've played AoM before. It features 3 (4 with the expansion) Pantheons: Greek, Egyptian and Norse (and the Titans in the Expansion). The story is essentially: Kronos wants to escape from Tartarus, and the mortla heroes (backed mainly by Zeus, alongside Isis and Thor) try to thwart his plans. What I found interesting is the "secondary Bad" was Poseidon, averting the tired trope of making Hades bad 'cuz he's in the underworld, which I remember beign pretty much on spot, as IIRC Poseidon coveted Zeus' position and power. In this case, Kronos tempts Poseidon if he helps him get free.

It was also interesting reading that Tiamat didn't want Apsu released because she was so much weaker than before.

What understood from that, is that if Apsu got free, Tiamat would return to beign "just" his consort, and she has grown to have her own agenda. I actually see that working very well with D&D Tiamat.

Its just a matter of wondering how many worshippers each deity has. I mean if there are 200 gods worshipped in your world and the population is only 200 million, most will only have thousands of worshippers.
I remember I had a system for working out the Levels of gods based on their Earthly worshipper total (at the peak points in history).

Well, in PS it is assumed that the most of the gods are multi-spheric, that is, worshipped on several Prime worlds. So you can have several times the number ot whorshippers to work with.

Nearly all of them.

I think in Greyhawk maybe Nerull, Pelor, Istus, Boccob and Cyndor are probably (relatively weak) Greater Deities.

I'll add Beory too, since she's Oerth's equivalent to Gaia. Aside from that, those are pretty much the only Greater gods, since most god the appropiate "demotion" in 2E. Also: I think Cyndor whould be back to lesser (he's not widely worshipped) and Lendor ought to be a Greater, since he's supposed to be the head of the Suel pantheon. Also might want to take Zilchus and Procan into account, as they are the two head gods in the Oeridian pantheon.

Each city state of the area probably had its own version of the legend.

That's pretty much how it was, the myths changed according to which city was the most dominant one, with Marduk coming into beign with Babylon's ascendancy. AFAICT, it was also the case in Egypt.

Something I've been meaning ot ask but kept forgetting: using your guidelines for working with pantheons, what about pantheon who are very biased to one side of the spectrum? IE, the very Lawful Egyptians, or the very Chaotic Olympians and Asgardians.

Upper_Krust · Jun 8, 2011

dark_mage said:
Hi ^^

Hi dark_mage mate!

I read this post a few days ago and got the (mistaken) impression it was more of a statement rather than asking me questions. Since then I just got sidetracked with the VB and website and a few other things (like E3 in fairness). Sorry for the slow reply.

Well, I don't know if you've played AoM before. It features 3 (4 with the expansion) Pantheons: Greek, Egyptian and Norse (and the Titans in the Expansion). The story is essentially: Kronos wants to escape from Tartarus, and the mortla heroes (backed mainly by Zeus, alongside Isis and Thor) try to thwart his plans. What I found interesting is the "secondary Bad" was Poseidon, averting the tired trope of making Hades bad 'cuz he's in the underworld, which I remember beign pretty much on spot, as IIRC Poseidon coveted Zeus' position and power. In this case, Kronos tempts Poseidon if he helps him get free.

No I haven't played that game, I'm more of an action junkie as far as games are concerned. Something like Bayonetta, Darksiders and so forth is my typical fare.

What understood from that, is that if Apsu got free, Tiamat would return to beign "just" his consort, and she has grown to have her own agenda. I actually see that working very well with D&D Tiamat.

From what I recollect Tiamat was weaker now than when Apsu was previously free and was worried about Apsu being the dominant partner now (and possibly even slaying Tiamat?)

Well, in PS it is assumed that the most of the gods are multi-spheric, that is, worshipped on several Prime worlds. So you can have several times the number ot whorshippers to work with.

Exactly. Assuming 1 AD Earth numbers, few Pantheons at their peak would have had 50 million total worshippers.

Most would have had between 1-10 million.

I'll add Beory too, since she's Oerth's equivalent to Gaia. Aside from that, those are pretty much the only Greater gods, since most god the appropiate "demotion" in 2E. Also: I think Cyndor whould be back to lesser (he's not widely worshipped) and Lendor ought to be a Greater, since he's supposed to be the head of the Suel pantheon. Also might want to take Zilchus and Procan into account, as they are the two head gods in the Oeridian pantheon.

I think there are a number of possibilities although I would have 5 total greater gods and all of them would be as weak as greater gods could be.

That's pretty much how it was, the myths changed according to which city was the most dominant one, with Marduk coming into beign with Babylon's ascendancy. AFAICT, it was also the case in Egypt.

Less so with Egypt once the Kingdoms were united.

Something I've been meaning ot ask but kept forgetting: using your guidelines for working with pantheons, what about pantheon who are very biased to one side of the spectrum? IE, the very Lawful Egyptians, or the very Chaotic Olympians and Asgardians.

Pantheons would still try to cover the spectrum of mortal choices. The overall trend of the Pantheon should follow its Leader(s). Usually the second most powerful deity is the opposite alignment to the Leader.

maxconfidence · Aug 9, 2020

Hi! I know it's been a decade, but how much it will cost support the creation of the finished book of "Immortal Handbook: Gods & Monsters"? There is any possibility that Craig Cochrane will do it? Or I missed something and this book have been already released? I have searched for any material about "Immortal Handbook" and I found "Ascension", "Gods & Monsters unfinished" and "Epic Bestiary Volume 1".

The Immortal's Handbook: Gods & Monsters (unfinished)

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