"Platinum Scales" L22 Sorcerer Utility - too good / nerfed already ?

Istar · Jan 17, 2011

What is the give with this power, has it been nerfed.

As a Warden, or any class for that matter, can get +7 plus to all defences for the rest of the whole encounter, a daily I know.

But its unbelivable defence for just one power ?

If a Warden gets it, with m/c Warlock, or even take that EP that lets you pick other powers from any class.

Then it gives you some crazy defence.

For a whole fight.

thewok · Jan 17, 2011

I'm not sure what you're asking here. This is a sorcerer power. What do wardens and warlocks have to do with it?

A dragon sorcerer is going to get about 6-7 points of defense from this power at 22. It seems nice.

I'm not sure if this would even be a desirable power for a warden. A warden is there to control who gets hit via marking. An extra 7-8 points of defenses for a warden will make it so no enemy would waste time attacking him, even with the penalty to attack someone else. He would raise his defenses to such a point that, for the rest of the encounter, he would lack the ability to do his job.

For anyone but a defender who has a high Strength score, though, the power is a pretty nice defensive tool.

Istar · Jan 17, 2011

thewok said:
I'm not sure what you're asking here. This is a sorcerer power. What do wardens and warlocks have to do with it?

A dragon sorcerer is going to get about 6-7 points of defense from this power at 22. It seems nice.

I'm not sure if this would even be a desirable power for a warden. A warden is there to control who gets hit via marking. An extra 7-8 points of defenses for a warden will make it so no enemy would waste time attacking him, even with the penalty to attack someone else. He would raise his defenses to such a point that, for the rest of the encounter, he would lack the ability to do his job.

For anyone but a defender who has a high Strength score, though, the power is a pretty nice defensive tool.

Interesting points as I am about 6 weeks away from starting a Warden.

But wont the Warden slow and hold enemies to him so they cant get to anyone else.

Then the high defence of this power would protect him.

Isnt the whole point of a tank to have high AC etc otherwise why bother with armour at all ?

thewok · Jan 17, 2011

Defenders need high defenses, yes. But the idea isn't to become unhittable. Unlike in a video game, there is nothing keeping a monster from attacking your friend instead of you. The purpose of the defender's mark (or defender aura) is to make it so the defender is a more enticing target than the squishy strikers, leaders and controllers.

If a defender's defenses are too high, enemies will quickly realize this and ignore the defender, even when marked. The defender's punishment mechanic will help somewhat, but ... here. Maybe it's better if I show you this way:

Say you have a level 22 strength-based defender with a 40 AC (10 +12 armor +5 enhancement +2 shield +11 half-level) adjacent to a creature. Also adjacent is a dragon sorcerer with a 37 AC (10 +3 armor +5 enhancement +8 strength +11 half-level). The sorcerer took Leather armor proficiency to help his defenses somewhat.

The defender has multiclassed into Sorcerer, and has taken the utility power swap feat to get Platinum Scales. He is beset by an efreet fireblade (a level 22 monster). He is attacked, and triggers Platinum Scales. Because he has a +8 strength modifier, his AC is now 48.

The next turn, the Efreet, having already used its Whirling Firesteel Strike (which didn't recharge this turn), uses its Scimitar attack, +27 vs. AC. It rolls a 19 on its attack.

19 + 27 = 46, which is below the AC of the defender. In fact, the efreet would have to roll a 21 on a d20 in order to hit the defender, which is impossible. Thus, the efreet is not going to bother attacking the defender (since it literally cannot hit it) and go focus on other members of the party. Yes, it will take a -2 penalty to any attacks if marked, but that is preferable to not being able to hit at all.

thewok · Jan 17, 2011

I should add that, in my example above, if the efreet were to attack the warden, he would still hit on a 20, since a natural 20 is an automatic hit. It would not, however, be a critical hit.

If the sorcerer had Platinum Scales as well, the efreet, if marked, could hit the sorcerer only on a 20. But, that would meet the AC of the sorcerer (which is 45), and thus would be a critical hit.

Even so, the efreet is probably going to go after more tempting targets. This is good for the sorcerer, but not for the defender, especially since there are probably multiple efreets in the encounter that will all know not to bother with the defender.

Istar · Jan 17, 2011

I would have thought with forms and zones doing slows and immobilises the enemy, the majority, have no choice but to attack the warden as they cant reach anybody else ?

Interesting idea's.

You could spend a lot of feats to add 3 or 4 to just AC, but this one power does it for all defenses, especially if its NAD they are attacking.

How do you feel about the 2nd wind Warden where he can have up to 5 2nd winds.
Where for 5 rounds of the battle he has very high defences.

Enemy will "pick up" its just temporary and you can hold them.
That tactic is reasonably feat entensive.

thewok · Jan 17, 2011

There might be zones, and there might be a form that is exceptionally sticky, but smart enemies will use double moves, sprinting, and whatever else they can in order to make your day a bad one. Even then, though, the chances of a warden tagging every enemy at once are pretty low.

I'm not huge into CharOp, at least as it is done on the WotC forums. I am more a fan of optimizing my character within its concept, and I'll pick race/class combos that aren't necessarily "optimal" (like my tiefling invoker).

I'm sure it's a solid build, but you might run into problems with longevity between extended rests. If you're blowing three surges per encounter just for keeping defenses higher, then you're going to run out of surges pretty quickly. You'll also be denying yourself standard actions pretty frequently. It's not a build I'd employ, for sure. But who knows? You might find it fun.

erleni · Jan 17, 2011

It's a wonderful power for any Str-based character (Barbarians, Straladins, Str-based Clerics, melee Rangers, Fighters, but also rogues with secondary Str). It's often worth to multiclass into sorcerer just to take it.

A fighter can put melee monster in a difficult situation as they'll have to either try to hit a very difficult target or provoke opportunity attacks.

My paladin multiclassed into sorcerer and power swapped it. As a Son of Mercy I was quite sticky and high defenses were very useful during tough encounters.

Str-based melee strikers can use the power to reduce the damage they take.

UngeheuerLich · Jan 17, 2011

a bit broken. would be great enough ueont...

MrMyth · Jan 18, 2011

The answer is yes, this is a poorly designed power. In the epic game I ran, the party sorcerer was about as tough to kill as the party warden, via a few key items and utility powers (as compared to an entire dedicated build).