Flat-Footed

I picked up a new player, and he insists that I'm playing the Flat-Footed rule wrong.

The way I read it, when a combat round starts, everybody rolls initiative. Characters move and act in inititiave order. On the first round, a character is considered flat-footed until his chance to act.

So...

If Caelis rolls a 15 Inititiative, and Thrallan rolls an 11, Caelis can walk up to Thrallan, attack him, and Thrallan will be considered flat-footed.

Thrallan is no longer flat-footed once the initiative count reaches him.

It seems pretty black and white to me. Is this how you see it?

Water Bob said:

The way I read it, when a combat round starts, everybody rolls initiative.

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Not a combat round. Just a combat, period.

Water Bob said:

Characters move and act in inititiave order. On the first round, a character is considered flat-footed until his chance to act.

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Again, don't focus on the round. The first round could be a surprise round. A character that doesn't get to act in the surprise round will remain flat-footed until he acts in the first non-surprise round, which would actually be the second round of combat.

So just ask yourself: has the character had an opportunity to act yet in this combat? If the answer is no, he's flat-footed.

Water Bob said:

So...

If Caelis rolls a 15 Inititiative, and Thrallan rolls an 11, Caelis can walk up to Thrallan, attack him, and Thrallan will be considered flat-footed.

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Yep.

Water Bob said:

Thrallan is no longer flat-footed once the initiative count reaches him.

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Yep.

Water Bob said:

It seems pretty black and white to me. Is this how you see it?

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Yep. Now please tell us, how does your new player think it works?

Vegepygmy said:

Not a combat round. Just a combat, period.

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Yes. Flat-footed during the first round of the combat only until your action.

So just ask yourself: has the character had an opportunity to act yet in this combat? If the answer is no, he's flat-footed.

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Exactly.

Yep. Now please tell us, how does your new player think it works?

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He thinks it's too high powered to remove all defense bonuses. He says that being flatfooted should only effect a character when he isn't aware of the other combatant (or isn't aware of the danger).

He says if (using the example characters above) Caelis and Thrallan are in an argument, shouting matching, that turns into a combat, that initiative is thrown but both characters are not considered flat-flooted no matter who wins the nish throw.

Show him this.

If he is arguing against this because he thinks its unbalanced, as opposed to RAW, then tell him that's his opinion and he's welcome to it, and if he wants to run a game that way when he's DMing he is free to do so.

Dandu said:

If he is arguing against this because he thinks its unbalanced, as opposed to RAW, then tell him that's his opinion and he's welcome to it, and if he wants to run a game that way when he's DMing he is free to do so.

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I showed him the rule in the book, but it doesn't matter. He thinks its an overpowered, bad rule that needs to be changed. I've got three players in my group, and now he's infected one of the others. Now, I've got two players who think the rule is overpowered.

I like the rule, myself.

Now, I've definitely run combats where everyone involved knew it was about to turn into a fight, and therefore no one started flat-footed, but that is by far the exception, not the rule.

As a silly check, you don't "remove all defense bonuses" - just Dex and Dodge. Are you taking more than that away?

Water Bob said:

I like the rule, myself.

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Well, if they are mature then I suggest you have a nice discussion with them over pizza (that you pay for) and soda (that you pay for, hint hint) in your house at your table as to how it is overpowered, and how they would feel about the enemy receiving the same powerup as them.

Patryn of Elvenshae said:

As a silly check, you don't "remove all defense bonuses" - just Dex and Dodge. Are you taking more than that away?

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No. Going exactly by RAW.

Dandu said:

Well, if they are mature then I suggest you have a nice discussion with them over pizza (that you pay for) and soda (that you pay for, hint hint) in your house at your table as to how it is overpowered, and how they would feel about the enemy receiving the same powerup as them.

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Given his argument: If Caelis and Thrallan are shouting at each other, and the situation goes to blows, then we roll iniative and start the fight...BUT, he says, neither Caelis or Thrallan should be flatfooted because both were expecting to enter the fight.

He asks, "Why would one have such an advantage over the other for only the first punch?"

I'm at a loss right now to defend the flat-footed rule (other than I'm very used to it, all the way back to Classic Traveller's First Blood rule).

Defend it by invoking your right as the DM to run the game as you see fit after a reasonable examination of the rules and the nature of your game.

He asks, "Why would one have such an advantage over the other for only the first punch?"

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If the argument gets tense, punch him and see if he retains Dex to AC.

Water Bob said:

He thinks it's too high powered to remove all defense bonuses. He says that being flatfooted should only effect a character when he isn't aware of the other combatant (or isn't aware of the danger).

He says if (using the example characters above) Caelis and Thrallan are in an argument, shouting matching, that turns into a combat, that initiative is thrown but both characters are not considered flat-flooted no matter who wins the nish throw.

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Water Bob said:

I showed him the rule in the book, but it doesn't matter. He thinks its an overpowered, bad rule that needs to be changed. I've got three players in my group, and now he's infected one of the others. Now, I've got two players who think the rule is overpowered.

I like the rule, myself.

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I have to wonder who it's overpowered for. In the scenario of Caelis and Thrallan, I suppose I could see the point of the both of them being already ready to strike each other, but that's up to the DM is such a situation arises. The point of initiative is to get first blood, which has the potential of being a very dangerous blow. Lowered AC means higher chance of getting damage. Especially with Power Attack. Also, if one of them is a Rouge, well...you know what I mean.

Getting the highest Initiative is important to the PC for just this reason, for if the monsters get it first, they could get hurt. But if the PCs get it, happy town. Taking that away takes away the point of needing a high initiative altogether, unless it's to stop someone's action in the very first round.

On speaking from experience, I once played a game that dealt away with the whole flat footed before your 1st turn. Due to us being new, however, I believe the reasoning was so we wouldn't be bogged down by all the rules at once. Mind you, we never changed it back, making the Rouge a much weaker striker. Mind you again, he also only allowed a single Sneak Attack per attack, even if the target was still flat footed or flanked from your previous attack. He may have just hated Rouges.

Dandu said:

Well, if they are mature then I suggest you have a nice discussion with them over pizza (that you pay for) and soda (that you pay for, hint hint) in your house at your table as to how it is overpowered, and how they would feel about the enemy receiving the same powerup as them.

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I'm all behind this path of logic (though it may hurt your wallet). Present scenarios where it works out for their favor, and how they would lose it if the other mans ruling went through. Have scenarios be given to you as well, and have it be kept in mind the 1st round of combat is meant to be decisive and dangerous, for the PCs and the NPCs, which is something they should like.