Homebrew alternate history

Hey, Joshua--great idea! Really got me thinking. Here's what comes to mind right off the bat:

Until Hitler began Operation Barbarossa in '41, the Soviets and Nazis were allies! If Hitler dies, and the war fizzles in '41, they remain allies with the Nazis in control of most of Europe and Britain in shambles (the Battle of Britain has been going on for a while). Big empire!

The U.S. was strictly isolationist until Pearl Harbor. Without that event, they stay out of the European theater. There is no Marshall Plan. I will go out on a limb and say that in your scenario, Britain is in decline and the U.S. is nowhere near as powerful as they are in the actual timeline. In fact, Britain probably bears the U.S. quite a bit of resentment for not bailing them out. With the end of the war possibly involving a capitulation on the part of Britain to the Nazis in return for the end of Blitzkrieg, this is even more likely.

The Bomb. You have to consider the Bomb. In your timeline the bomb is never dropped on civilian targets by the U.S. In fact, Werner von Braun's rocket program will probably be a success. The Nazis get the bomb first, they are the first into space, etc. By 2000 you'll have a technological Axis between Berlin and Tokyo.

Japan still has an army. Mao never gains more than a guerilla following. Germany/Soviet Union/Japan would be the superpowers dominating the planet. The U.S. would be analagous to the present (real world) France or Germany. Britain is, at best, a nonentity on the international scene, at worst, a Nazi stooge.

There is the possibility that the Sino-Nazi-Soviet power bloc will make a later bid for worldwide power in the '50s or '60s (WW III), but I am also intrigued by the idea of a war between them and an Arab Empire.

In any case, the U.S.'s involvement in WWII left a lot of European nations owing them a lot of money and favors, and arguably led directly to most (if not all) of the technological and economic power they've enjoyed since then. Without Pearl Harbor, the U.S. simply would not reach superpower status. They would own the Western Hemisphere of a VERY hostile world.

Paragon Badger said:

Cool. What are you planning for PCs in this campaign? Are they covert ops for one of the superpowers?

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Yeah, probably. More of an x-files division of the CIA or something like that, or maybe a pan-Nation "Archer Foundation" scenario that attempts to covertly bridge the gaps between super-powers. I dunno exactly yet, I just want to hammer out some details of the setting first.

Tom Cashel said:

...Until Hitler began Operation Barbarossa in '41, the Soviets and Nazis were allies! If Hitler dies, and the war fizzles in '41, they remain allies with the Nazis in control of most of Europe and Britain in shambles (the Battle of Britain has been going on for a while). Big empire!

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Yes, although the alliance between Stalin and Hitler was bound to fall apart, I think, even without the launch of Operation Barbarossa. It's not hard to either postulate that Barbarossa was launched right before Hitler's death and rather quickly recalled, or that some other diplomatic faux pax subsequently split the alliance. Still, the idea of a big and very powerful German Empire with fascist policies (although not as extreme as Nazism turned out to be without Hitler's presence for the last several years of the war) is a key feature of the setting.

The U.S. was strictly isolationist until Pearl Harbor. Without that event, they stay out of the European theater. There is no Marshall Plan. I will go out on a limb and say that in your scenario, Britain is in decline and the U.S. is nowhere near as powerful as they are in the actual timeline. In fact, Britain probably bears the U.S. quite a bit of resentment for not bailing them out. With the end of the war possibly involving a capitulation on the part of Britain to the Nazis in return for the end of Blitzkrieg, this is even more likely.

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Yeah, that occured to me too. I need to come up with some alternative way to get the US out of it's turtle shell and into the world theater in a big way without actually involving them in a hot war. Or perhaps involving them in another hot war, perhaps in the Middle East, which draws them out, and provides the gestalt to launch the pan-Arab "empire" as well? I'm sure there's other ideas.

The Bomb. You have to consider the Bomb. In your timeline the bomb is never dropped on civilian targets by the U.S. In fact, Werner von Braun's rocket program will probably be a success. The Nazis get the bomb first, they are the first into space, etc. By 2000 you'll have a technological Axis between Berlin and Tokyo.

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True, the Nazis were probably there first. Unless, of course, the scientists that did actually defect do so in this scenario too. I really would like all four superpowers to be atomic, but how they get there and in what order, and what goes on in the meantime is a big open question.

Japan still has an army. Mao never gains more than a guerilla following. Germany/Soviet Union/Japan would be the superpowers dominating the planet. The U.S. would be analagous to the present (real world) France or Germany. Britain is, at best, a nonentity on the international scene, at worst, a Nazi stooge.

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Yeah, I need to come up with another compelling reason to draw the US into "superpowerhood" but I haven't yet worked out the details of what that would be exactly. Perhaps they finally came to Britains rescue when the Nazis withdrew their attention from the Soviets?

In any case, the U.S.'s involvement in WWII left a lot of European nations owing them a lot of money and favors, and arguably led directly to most (if not all) of the technological and economic power they've enjoyed since then. Without Pearl Harbor, the U.S. simply would not reach superpower status. They would own the Western Hemisphere of a VERY hostile world.

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IMO, if you're going for "alternate" you should just have the U.S. be less of a player on the world stage, rather than shoehorning them into superpowerdom. It's about as different from the real world as you can get, and it also makes a U.S. struggle vs. a huge fascistic, technologically superior Nazi empire all the more dramatic and poignant.

EDIT: The whole goal of the "Archer Foundation" could be to make the U.S. a superpower!

Hmmm... maybe that's a good point. The US has been a burgeoning potential superpower, hoarding its influence in the American hemisphere, but is now striking out to make a stand with the other three powers and really struggling to go toe to toe with them... I like it.

I was also thinking of putting Japan on tight skids: they're probably stretched pretty thin over a large area, without the manpower to really control it. Given their policies in conquered territory, they have to assume that all of it is hostile as well, and requires a lot of resources to maintain. Mix these together -- US trying to step up and be recognized as a new superpower and Japan desperately trying not to lose influence, and you've got some great conflict. The Soviet Union is also probably a financial vacuum -- in my setting it's already lasted a good 10-15 years longer than it actually did without a collapse, so the Russians could be a bit desperate as well. Perhaps the Germans, seeing weakness in the other two superpowers is also stepping up the pressure to expand eastwards, or control the oil supply, or something like that. This could really be a world on the brink of a big-time hot war.

Add, of course, a little bit of occult threat to that: grays have been visiting/shot down providing some advanced technology, demons or whatnot have been summoned from dark worlds, and this could make for a really interesting setting.

I should note for those who don't know: the Archer foundation is an idea I stole from the Shadowforce Archer campaign setting for Spycraft. It's a pan-National anti-occult force. I might utilize that idea for something, or I might not. It's not a bad idea, though.

Tom Cashel said:

IMO, if you're going for "alternate" you should just have the U.S. be less of a player on the world stage, rather than shoehorning them into superpowerdom. It's about as different from the real world as you can get, and it also makes a U.S. struggle vs. a huge fascistic, technologically superior Nazi empire all the more dramatic and poignant.

EDIT: The whole goal of the "Archer Foundation" could be to make the U.S. a superpower!

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The more I think about it, now, the more the idea of a non-superpower USA seems to be difficult. Defections to the US were rampant from both the Soviets and the Nazis, so the US getting the technological capability to go atomic (probably after Germany, though, in this scenario) is very easy. With three superpowers stomping around, it's hard to believe that someone else wouldn't trigger the equivalent of a Pearl Harbor and "awaken the sleeping giant" although the scenario has to balance this carefully so that one of the superpowers isn't eliminated by this course of action. And finally, even with the neutrality and isolationism, the US was really slowly moving towards war before even Pearl Harbor. I find it hard to believe that the US would simply watch Britain be completely plowed over by the Nazis and not do anything about it. YMMV, but I have a harder and harder time justifying the US as not a superpower in this setting. They had all the right ingredients before WWII -- they just needed a nudge to get out of isolationism. Whether that nudge is Pearl Harbor or something else, it's hard to imagine it not happening at all.

id help Joshua but i suck at using real world history in this b/c some aspects just bore me (unless it involves religious ideas and philosophies). Politics and war bore me and thats why i stay out.

Sorry friend =)

Greetings!

Hey there Joshua!

Well, the United States began work on the Atomic Bomb before its entry into World War II. The Japanese as well were working on the Atomic Bomb in special secret laboratory complexes that were specially built for atomic research, as well as rocket engines, and chemical warfare technology in secluded and fortified parts of North Korea. Indeed, it is from the Soviet's capture of these secret Japanese facilities that boosted their own atomic research. The fact of the matter is, the Japanese came far closer to developing the atomic bomb than the Germans ever did. The Japanese even had operational plans that as late as the summer of 1945 they thought that within six months, or by the end of 1945 and heading into the spring of 1946, they might have enough atomic bombs to defeat America. The Japanese had planned on striking the West Coast by using long-range submarines that the Japanese had plenty of--that would cruise into San Francisco, Los Angeles, and San Diego to make suicide attacks by exploding atomic bombs right there in the harbor. The Japanese also had plans on making suicide atomic submarine attacks against the gathering American fleets, hoping to strike just before the American fleets set off to invade the Japanese Home Islands.

Thankfully, we beat them to the punch, and nuked them first, and brought them to their knees. They had other plans though, and that is something you can take to the bank! Naturally, I have excellent sources documenting these developments, if you are interested.

Also, the Japanese High Command had planned on attacking America regardless of what Nazi Germany did, or did not do. The showdown between America and Japan was on a collision course ever since 1934 with the Washington Naval Treaty, where the size and number of Japanese warships were limited by treaty. Of course, the Japanese ignored this treaty, to which they had signed. The course was also set because Japan was proceeding with its war and invasion of China. America was an ally of China, and rightfully objected at the bloody atrocities and war that Japan was unlawfully waging against China. In response to the Japanese continued arrogance, America began tightening trade with Japan, including the oil embargo, which presented a strategic Fait Accompli to Japan in the spring/summer of 1941. At that point, the Japanese strategic oil reserves--that would allow their Imperial Navy to operate, and which their campaign of expansion and conquest absolutely depended--would only last six months. Thus, Japan had to secure their continued oil supplies if they were to continue their Imperial expansion--or give in, in which they would face continued political and economic problems, as well as the most important--they would "lose face." The Japanese could not--and would not do this. Thus, they resolved that they had to strike, and strike quickly. They hoped that they could annihilate the American fleet at Pearl Harbour and deal us such a terrible defeat, that the "weak" "mongrel" Americans--for that is what they called us--would shrink back from the expense of a long and bloody war, and give in to the Japanese. Faced with such a terrible war, in preference, we would back down, we would sign a peace treaty with Japan, and then, the Japanese Empire would have free reign to conquer all of the Pacific and eastern Asia without worrying about American interference.

Well, they thought we would be weak.

They thought wrong.

The war then proceeded along predictable lines, for as Winston Churchill said on the eve after Pearl Harbor--

"Rejoice all Europe! For we are saved! The New World, America, shall come to the rescue of the old! We shall not enter a new Dark Age, for America will redeem us in our struggle against Nazi Germany. As for Japan, well, the United States, aroused in wrath and righteous fury, will grind Japan into dust, for Japan has succeeded only in waking a sleeping giant!" (paraphrase)

With there being no war against the Soviet Union, it is probable that eventually Great Britain would have fallen to the Nazis. Africa and the Middle East as well, would have fallen to the Nazis, and the oil of the region would be in the hands of the Nazis. In the spring of 1941 Erwin Rommel arrived with the Afrika Korps. Without continued American aid, Egypt and the Middle East would have fallen to the Germans. That would preclude a Middle eastern Empire, I think, because the Germans were so close to capturing Egypt and the Middle East. Also, had Germany succeeded in capturing Egypt from the British, and withou American help it is extremely unlikely that Britian would have been able to defend it successfully--then the nation of Turkey had plans to join the Axis Powers as a German ally in the war. This development, of course, would have only served to facilitate and speed up the process of a German conquest of the Middle East. The Muslims were also keen on helping the Nazis exterminate the Jews, too.

Thus, some considerations for your game world Joshua!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Yeah, SHARK, the more I think about it, the more I think I fall into the camp (along with many historians) that Pearl Harbor was certainly the catalyst that brought us to WWII -- but that we would inevitably have been involved with or without it.

Although the scenario you describe makes it harder to envision Imperial Japan as part of my scenario... I'd have to really play around with some resolution to the war that has neither Japan nor the US soundly defeated so they can rise as a superpower after the war is over.