Fighting in shallow water

Havrik Stoneskimmer · May 31, 2011

Suppose you have a scenario where the adventurers are fighting in shallow water (maybe 4 feet deep). This isn't "underwater combat" but it must be more complicated than normal dry land.

Is this just difficult terrain, or does an adventurer have to make an Athletics check in order to "swim" (wade) through it?

Do they take any penalty to their attack rolls fighting a creature in the water?

If the creatures they are fighting have the aquatic keyword (and can therefore breathe under water) do the creatures get any bonus to their attacks on the players?

If they fall prone in the water, should we assume they hold their breath (and have to make Endurance checks if they take damage)? What if they fall unconscious in the water? Do they immediately start to drown (skipping the usual 3 minutes that a person can go without air)?

I think I have an interesting and challenging scenario coming up, but I want to make sure I have a rules handle on everything that is likely to come up.

UngeheuerLich · May 31, 2011

I guess, I would make it difficult terrain and also allowing aquatic creatures to get +2 against non-aquatic creatures...

jonesy · May 31, 2011

Depends on how shallow the water is. Below your knees, nada. Above your shoulders, treat it as underwater. Everything else, difficult terrain.

What sort of aquatic creatures are we talking about? Some of them might get penalties themselves for just shallow water.

AbdulAlhazred · May 31, 2011

Yeah, there are no specific rules on shallow water aside from IIRC it is difficult terrain. The underwater combat rules don't really address this specifically, but if it was me I'd have a creature that wants to swim and is roughly man-sized use the underwater rules. Anyone who's standing up and moving around and tall enough to be wading could engage with other creatures that are also doing the same or that are on shore as normal.

I think once you're unconscious you would start to drown immediately. Of course death saves are likely to do for you before drowning does....

Havrik Stoneskimmer · May 31, 2011

AbdulAlhazred said:
I think once you're unconscious you would start to drown immediately. Of course death saves are likely to do for you before drowning does....

Perhaps, although failing two Endurance checks will reduce you to negative bloodied and kill you, and many heroic tier characters are more likely to fail a DC 20 Endurance check than a death save.

Primitive Screwhead · May 31, 2011

I love using different terrain options.

I classify water by size, based on the depth that would be waist deep on a creature of that size. A creature one size bigger is knee deep. Two sizes bigger is ankle deep.
Going the other way goes to shoulder depth, then over the head.

Ankle deep.. no restictions but loud when walking/running.
Knee deep..difficult terrain
Waist deep. Slowed. Can swim if voluntarily prone or have a swim speed
Shoulder deep. Slowed. Can swim

Attack from above the water suffer a -2 penalty to hit due to the refraction. Underwater creatures often gain concealment in addition to this.
Creature without swim speed using natural weapons or creatures using non-piercing weapons are weakened against underwater targets. Some powers, such as a firebolt, may also be weakened.

Oh.. wrong forum! Sorry for the house rule clutter ;-)

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fba827 · May 31, 2011

the water-filling chamber hazard in DMG2 has something various effects based on the amount of water that has filled. for shallow water, there is something like "difficult terrain for small creatures, no effect on medium sized creatures"

Dedekind · Jun 1, 2011

I would just declare it to be some sort of scenario and let your players know what all the restrictions are. In other words, exception based design

I really like that range attacks would get penalties.

Alaxk Knight of Galt · Jun 1, 2011

Havrik Stoneskimmer said:
Suppose you have a scenario where the adventurers are fighting in shallow water (maybe 4 feet deep). This isn't "underwater combat" but it must be more complicated than normal dry land.

Is this just difficult terrain, or does an adventurer have to make an Athletics check in order to "swim" (wade) through it?

The rules on difficult terrain say "Rubble, undergrowth, shallow bogs, steep stairs, and other impediments are difficult terrain, which hampers movement."

I'd say that 4 feet deep would be difficult terrain at a minimum. As a GM, I wouldn't feel bad by saying movement cost 2 extra instead of just one (slowed is also an excellent suggestion) or applying a penalty to attacks for fighting in it. I might say that in that much water, they are granting combat advantage to attackers as well. Depends on how difficult I wanted to make the encounter.

I hope you don't have any gnomes or halflings in the group

Do they take any penalty to their attack rolls fighting a creature in the water?

If the creatures they are fighting have the aquatic keyword (and can therefore breathe under water) do the creatures get any bonus to their attacks on the players?

I wouldn't give aquatic creatures fighting on their home turf bonuses. The PCs being at a massive dissadvantage is good enough.

If they fall prone in the water, should we assume they hold their breath (and have to make Endurance checks if they take damage)? What if they fall unconscious in the water? Do they immediately start to drown (skipping the usual 3 minutes that a person can go without air)?

If conscious and prone in the water, I'd assume they are holding their breath. I might call for an Athletic check to stand back up.

I looked on the compendium and didn't see any rules for drowning. What I'd do for an unconscious PC would be to drain a healing Surge each round in addition to making a death saving throw. When they reach -1 surges, they drown.

Havrik Stoneskimmer · Jun 1, 2011

Alaxk Knight of Galt said:
I hope you don't have any gnomes or halflings in the group

Funny you should say that! None of the PCs are, but the NPC crew of the riverboat will be halflings. They won't be doing any actual fighting though (except perhaps dieing horribly).

I wouldn't give aquatic creatures fighting on their home turf bonuses. The PCs being at a massive dissadvantage is good enough.

Well, the rules for underwater combat give creatures with the aquatic keyword a +2 attack bonus against non-aquatic creatures when underwater. This isn't exactly underwater, but maybe close enough.

I looked on the compendium and didn't see any rules for drowning. What I'd do for an unconscious PC would be to drain a healing Surge each round in addition to making a death saving throw. When they reach -1 surges, they drown.

It's in the environment section on p. 180 of the Rules Compendium. You make Endurance checks every round, starting at DC 20 and increasing the DC by 5 with every failed check. Failure costs a healing surge, or if there are none left, the PC's level worth of damage. So actually, to correct my previous post, a downed PC in the water will probably die from failing death saves faster than from drowning, unless they were already very low on healing surges.

Fighting in shallow water

Havrik Stoneskimmer

Adventurer

UngeheuerLich

Legend

jonesy

A Wicked Kendragon

AbdulAlhazred

Legend

Havrik Stoneskimmer

Adventurer

Primitive Screwhead

First Post

fba827

Adventurer

Dedekind

Explorer

Alaxk Knight of Galt

First Post

Havrik Stoneskimmer

Adventurer

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