Dual Shield Ranger build help

I'm thinking of making a Ranger using the Shield and Weapon style from APG, goal of using two Heavy spiked Bashing shields by level 6. With Ranger, he can get Shield Slam at 2 and Shield Master at 6, so he can dual wield the shields w/o penalty and get a free bull rush on every hit. That's the basic concept. I'm not sure what do actually do with that, though.

I could go for Greater Bull Rush to make each push back provoke, but I'm not sure it's worth it. You see, Shield Slam doesn't use CMB, it uses your attack roll, so the bonuses from Improved and Greater are worthless. Further, even if he uses two one-handed weapons (the heavy shields), my understanding is that Power Attack would still only be +1 damage on the "off-hand." Which...IMO isn't worth it unless I'm having a major problem with someone's DR. So, I'm not sure 3 feats just to make it provoke is worth it. It'd help if I knew the party make-up, like if we have a battlefield control mage then just knocking people into "the suck" is probably a viable enough contribution to the party, for example.

Also not sure of race. I really really like dwarf, but str is the most important stat and I need to actually qualify for the TWF line, so high dex is unfortunately also important. Not sure I can afford a race that doesn't boost either of those. So, maybe Tengu or Oread instead? Or Human, but I try to avoid playing humans whenever possible.

Finally, I'm not sure what I should do after Ranger 6. Ranger 10 I can get Bashing Finish which isn't bad. But I'd be open to a prestige class or multiclass if it can give me some new combat options, too. Does anyone recommend a Ranger archetype? It seems like Guide or normal Ranger is the best for my concept.

Thanks for your help.

UPDATE: Based upon common sense and what's been said on the matter on paizo's forums, I've come to the conclusion that you do, in fact, get Improved/Greater Bull Rush's bonuses on Shield Slam.

Don't take this as an attack on your build, but... could you explain the what the draw is to dual shields? You're not the first person I've seen to try it and I picture a guy with 2 shields and it just seems like a ridiculous concept to me. Or is this purely an optimization type of thing?

There's a draw, and it's optimized. I played a bodyguard character with two shields previously, and he was really fun even though mechanically weak and spread thin between multiclassing and multiple ability dependency. Of course, that was using the whole of 3E splat material, so he had half a dozen things to use the second shield for, like blocking attacks on allies or providing it's AC bonus to them for a round. So, out of nostalgia I kinda want to do another dual shield guy. Plus I like the mental image of a big dude in armor with two massive wickedly pointy shields.

For the optimizing part... For starters, having two of the same weapon makes feats like Weapon Focus and such go further, it's why a TWF build is just as likely to be two shortswords as it is longsword + shortsword. With Shield Slam, I get a free bull rush every attack with a shield, so it's tactically useful to get more chances to do that per round. Finally, the biggest reason it's optimized is the absolutely amazing Shield Master feat. No penalties to attack with a shield means your "main hand" shield is at least getting a +2 to hit over any non-shield weapon for TWF (in the case of wanting a heavy shield in the off-hand, a +4 difference). Not only that, but now defensive enhancements count for offensive enhancement, so each +1 you imbue in it is paying extra dividends. And considering how freaking expensive keeping two weapons upgraded is, that's really helpful. Sure, you only get the AC boost from one, but if nothing else, AC bonuses cost half, so you're still getting two +5 weapons and a +5 AC for 50,000 gp (to be fair, you're going to at least be paying another 22,000 for Bashing on each) ultimately. And with Bashing and spiked on a heavy shield, it's doing a respectable 2d6 medium base damage, though only a 20/x2 crit.

To be honest, if and when a Ranger hits 10 and gets Bashing Finish (free shield bash on a crit), it may very well be more optimal to main hand a heavy shield and offhand a kukri with either Improved Critical or Keen. But I'd still rather just use my two shields even then.

Is having two shields really that outlandish in real life?

Ah, thanks for the explanation. I see your point in the mechanics aspect, it seems really effective. It still kinda seems outlandish to me though, mechanics aside, but I can kinda see it with wicked spikes being a cool concept. I'm just trying to put myself in character and think what would lead them to choose that style of combat rather than the 'normal' options.

StreamOfTheSky said:

Is having two shields really that outlandish in real life?

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I can see the draw. It has a certain image to it that I can imagine lots of folks appreciating. I also imagine it is damn rare in real life. A big shield was heavy and wasn't maneuvered with any where near the precision, speed, or extent of a sword. You'd be exhausted.

First, Not trying to rain on your parade cause I like the idea.

Second, it kinda is so outlandish irl. Think how many times you have seen someone clobbered with 2 shield? in movies? in shows?

Only time I can think of anyone using 2 shields in a show I watched was when Samurai Jack used 2 Shields to defend himself as he ran down a corridor filled with arrow/dart traps

Now the rain storm:
First, if you use a heavy shield as your off hand attack, the penalty is same for using a 1 handed weapon as your off hand (-4)

Second, 2 +5 bashing shields would cost 72K not 50k

Third, the +5 only affects shield bonus, bashing says, they only get +1. Or more precisely, acts as a +1 weapon

Now, where I want to help

1st level ranger spell: Lead blades. Light spiked bashing shields will do 2d6 each and heavy will do 3d6
2nd level ranger spell: Aspect of the Bear. +2 Nat Armor, +2 CMB (not really needed) no attacks provoked when bull rushing, grappling and overrunning (again not needed, but +2 nat ac is always welcome)
4th level ranger spell: Aspect of the Wolf. +4 to Dex and Str, +2 to Trip, swift action trip attempt (this is more just a fun aspect, bonus STR and DEX means more damage and harder to hit usually)

Feats
1 WF shield
2 Improved Shield Bash
3 Shield Focus
5 Shield Slam
6 Shield Master
7 Double Slice
9 Improved Critical Shield
10 Bashing Finish

At this point, I would stop gaining ranger levels and look into Druid. Specifically Pack Lord archtype
your feats will pretty much be Boon Companion(11, 13, 15, 17 and 19), gain a Velociraptor each time (till you have 5 off druid levels)

you gain spell casting, and really nice spells too and lots of animal companions to flank with. your ranger companion I would recommend a Megaloceros (megafauna, Elk ride-able and nasty to fight)

Dingo333 said:

Second, it kinda is so outlandish irl. Think how many times you have seen someone clobbered with 2 shield? in movies? in shows?

Only time I can think of anyone using 2 shields in a show I watched was when Samurai Jack used 2 Shields to defend himself as he ran down a corridor filled with arrow/dart traps

Click to expand...

Part of what I like about the concept of two shields IS the rarity of it. It feels like I'm really playing a fighting style that's "different" than anything that came before. And frankly, I don't see why it's any more ridiculous than a spiked chain.

Dingo333 said:

Now the rain storm:
First, if you use a heavy shield as your off hand attack, the penalty is same for using a 1 handed weapon as your off hand (-4)

Click to expand...

Please read the Shield Master feat (which Ranger gets at level 6, which...is the main reason I'm using Ranger for the build to begin with). It is entirely possibly that I go heavy + light shield or even sword and board before level 6 while I don't have the benefit of that feat, of course. That's why the goal is to have the two heavy shields ready to go by level 6.

Dingo333 said:

Second, 2 +5 bashing shields would cost 72K not 50k

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I did say in my second post: "to be fair, you're going to at least be paying another 22,000 for Bashing on each." So I did acknowledge that.

Dingo333 said:

Third, the +5 only affects shield bonus, bashing says, they only get +1. Or more precisely, acts as a +1 weapon

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Again, please read the Shield Master feat. It makes the defensive enhancement apply offensively.

Dingo333 said:

Now, where I want to help

1st level ranger spell: Lead blades. Light spiked bashing shields will do 2d6 each and heavy will do 3d6
2nd level ranger spell: Aspect of the Bear. +2 Nat Armor, +2 CMB (not really needed) no attacks provoked when bull rushing, grappling and overrunning (again not needed, but +2 nat ac is always welcome)
4th level ranger spell: Aspect of the Wolf. +4 to Dex and Str, +2 to Trip, swift action trip attempt (this is more just a fun aspect, bonus STR and DEX means more damage and harder to hit usually)

Feats
1 WF shield
2 Improved Shield Bash
3 Shield Focus
5 Shield Slam
6 Shield Master
7 Double Slice
9 Improved Critical Shield
10 Bashing Finish

At this point, I would stop gaining ranger levels and look into Druid. Specifically Pack Lord archtype
your feats will pretty much be Boon Companion(11, 13, 15, 17 and 19), gain a Velociraptor each time (till you have 5 off druid levels)

you gain spell casting, and really nice spells too and lots of animal companions to flank with. your ranger companion I would recommend a Megaloceros (megafauna, Elk ride-able and nasty to fight)

Click to expand...

Thanks for the build advice, though yours has none of the TWF feats in it at all. And you can't take Shield Slam at level 5, it requires BAB +6. You can take it as a bonus feat at Ranger 2 and ignore the pre-reqs, however, which is what I plan to do. I figured my feats would look like this:

1 Imp Shield Bash
2 Shield Slam
3 TWF
5 Weapon Focus (Heavy Shield)
6 Shield Master
7 Improved TWF
9 Improved Critical (Heavy Shield)
10 Bashing Finish

Explain how you have the required +11 BAB at level 6 in order to take the Shield Mastery feat.

I'm very interested in a build similar to this.

The Weapon and Shield Fighter (new combat style found in APG and also included in the Ranger entry on d20pfsrd.org) adds Shield Master to its list of bonus feats at level 6. Rangers do NOT need to meet the pre-requisites for their bonus feats, unlike Fighters.

That's it, basically. Archery and Crossbow (which is almost identical to archery, ultimately...) has a similar sweet deal with Improved Precise Shot at level 6. Mounted combat style lets you take Trick Riding (normally requires level 9+ !) at level 2 and Mounted Skirmisher (normally requires level 14+) at level 10. Therefore, I find them to be the best combat styles for a ranger. TWF, two handed, and natural weapon all fail to offer such early entry options, making them subpar, IMO.

"At 2nd level, a ranger must select one of two (seven, if styles from Advanced Player's Guide are allowed) combat styles to pursue: archery or two-weapon combat (Note: Advanced Player's Guide adds 5 new combat style options: crossbow, mounted combat, natural weapon, two-handed weapon, and weapon and shield).


The ranger's expertise manifests in the form of bonus feats at 2nd, 6th, 10th, 14th, and 18th level. He can choose feats from his selected combat style, even if he does not have the normal prerequisites.

The benefits of the ranger's chosen style feats apply only when he wears light, medium, or no armor. He loses all benefits of his combat style feats when wearing heavy armor. Once a ranger selects a combat style, it cannot be changed."

Totally doing this then, I think I might multiclass to fighter for more crazy shield feats and heavy armor after ranger 6