The waterfall plummets 1000 feet...

David Smith3

First Post
I used parts of the Son Doong Cave (it's in Vietnam). Talk about a living Cave.

"The Son Doong Cave in Vietnam is the biggest cave in the world. It’s over 5.5 miles long, has a jungle and river, and could fit a 40-story skyscraper within its walls."
 

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Eltab

Lord of the Hidden Layer
Yellowstone National Park.

- Old Faithful and the geysers "behind" it (as the cameras are placed)
- Mammoth Springs. Half a hillside of bright-white sulfur deposits, hot water trickling away, the funny smell (which stretches for a mile)
- Mudpots and similar land features.
- Somebody was clumsy and left behind a hat / scarf / whatever. Partially submerged and dusted with sulfur, it looks like it is melting into the ground
- The sign warning you NOT to step off the walkway onto the sulfur-surface. Some kid did so, and broke through into boiling-hot water up to his shoulders. Even helicopter medi-vac wasn't fast enough...
- Burnt-over areas from the year "the park almost burnt down". All the new trees are the same height, with branchless poles sticking out of the canopy
- There are mountains hiding under all those trees
- "Sleeping Indian" Mountain, the ridgeline looks like a HUGE... nah, it couldn't be...
- The Yellowstone River Canyon. Rather cramped, but the rocks change tint smoothly from red to yellow as you move upwards - and also as you move southwards.
- Looking across Big Bear Lake, helps if you get claustrophobic from being between mountains and ridges.
 

Celebrim

Legend
On the other hand, having a living ecosystem in a dead cave makes much less sense. Some level of realism (along with how much more interesting the real world can be than randomly generated dungeons) is why I want this in the first place. And the fact that Mammoth Cave is long stretches of passageway between rooms just means that you treat it somewhat like wilderness travel.

I certainly applaud the sentiment. My family was cavers so I grew up in them, and it does inform how I dress natural passageways in my gaming.

There are many fantasy caves though are not much like real caves. In fantasy, mushrooms aren't decay vectors that remove energy from the environment, but basic energy creators that support living ecosystems without the need of energy imported from outside the cave environment. Real cave environments of course entirely depend on transport of organic material into the cave, usually from a combination of bat guano, plants with root systems that enter into the cave (when the cave is close to the surface), and surface water flowing into the cave.

Most caves are quite 'dead' in the sense of having little or no life in them even when they aren't 'dead' in the sense that a speologist rather than a biologist will speak about a cave. You can go miles without seeing anything alive, even in a system like mammoth. On the other hand, some caves in Mexico that are very warm and have a large influx of organic material are so 'alive' that one of the major hazards of the cave is the sheer volume of living creatures in them. Seriously, the bugs alone can make it nearly impossible to breath without a filter. You also get caves were the amount of decay is so great, that they are carbon dioxide and/or methane rich and even if the bats are adapted to breathe it, you aren't.

But fine. I'm nothing like a cave expert. If Mammoth Cave wouldn't make a good dungeon, what cavern complex would?

A fantasy Mammoth Cave with more cave formations which is smaller and denser with things to do and see. Also, verticality is (IMO) awesome in a dungeon, and real caves have vertical terrain quite unlike almost anything that has ever been published. Indeed, you probably have to tone down the verticality and complexity in most real caves, which at least is comparatively small problem with Mammoth. But personally I'd rather have fewer interesting rooms rather than tons of almost identically shaped ones.

My advice would be to start with some of the smaller survey maps you can find online. I looked hard and found nothing on Mammoth that was particularly useful - just some sketches from 100 years ago showing a rather small part of the cave without much detail.

Has anyone turned any real-world cavern into a playable dungeon?

I'm sure plenty of people have, but I'm not sure you'll find good examples online. I usually piecemeal import rooms I've seen into a fantasy cave of my own design.

Still, I'm rather miffed that Mammoth survey maps aren't publically available. I understand why the caving community is so protective of its maps and even more protective of the location of entrances, but Mammoth is a freaking national park and world treasure. More to the point, it's not like Mammoth is a particularly delicate cave system with a lot of irreplaceable treasures of natural art that you must be protected from even a single inept intrusion. By this point, there ought to be explorable Minecraft maps of Mammoth.
 

Eltab

Lord of the Hidden Layer
Still, I'm rather miffed that Mammoth survey maps aren't publically available. I understand why the caving community is so protective of its maps and even more protective of the location of entrances, but Mammoth is a freaking national park and world treasure. More to the point, it's not like Mammoth is a particularly delicate cave system with a lot of irreplaceable treasures of natural art that you must be protected from even a single inept intrusion. By this point, there ought to be explorable Minecraft maps of Mammoth.
There aren't any 'tourist maps' showing where the tours go? That would be a place to start.
I'm thinking along the lines of: show up in person (I live close enough that I could make a 3-day weekend of it) with a digital camera, planning to work out a 3-D representation of the caverns on my home computer later. And flat maps drafted from that.

"A Map of Mammoth Cave" does not have to be so accurate or complete as to get amateur explorers into danger, just enough to give the feel of the place.
 

Celebrim

Legend
There aren't any 'tourist maps' showing where the tours go? That would be a place to start.
I'm thinking along the lines of: show up in person (I live close enough that I could make a 3-day weekend of it) with a digital camera, planning to work out a 3-D representation of the caverns on my home computer later. And flat maps drafted from that.

"A Map of Mammoth Cave" does not have to be so accurate or complete as to get amateur explorers into danger, just enough to give the feel of the place.

There are fairly accurate maps of the older historical tour areas. But that's like 3 miles of the 390 miles of total passage. I've also seen a few really big line drawings to give you a sense of where the major passages go and what the major complexes are like, but they aren't terribly useful for making a map. Most caves in the 3-5 mile range have simple enough maps you can mostly represent them on one page of paper, so if you want to start with something smaller than Mammoth, you'd be fine. I was kind of hoping there would be images on line that you could actually use as your dungeon map, which you can do with many sorts of survey maps (though now days, they use spinning lasers to put breakdown on the map, which IMO makes for a really ugly map).
 

Calion

Explorer
There are many fantasy caves though are not much like real caves. In fantasy, mushrooms aren't decay vectors that remove energy from the environment, but basic energy creators that support living ecosystems without the need of energy imported from outside the cave environment. Real cave environments of course entirely depend on transport of organic material into the cave, usually from a combination of bat guano, plants with root systems that enter into the cave (when the cave is close to the surface), and surface water flowing into the cave.

Most caves are quite 'dead' in the sense of having little or no life in them even when they aren't 'dead' in the sense that a speologist rather than a biologist will speak about a cave. You can go miles without seeing anything alive, even in a system like mammoth. On the other hand, some caves in Mexico that are very warm and have a large influx of organic material are so 'alive' that one of the major hazards of the cave is the sheer volume of living creatures in them. Seriously, the bugs alone can make it nearly impossible to breath without a filter. You also get caves were the amount of decay is so great, that they are carbon dioxide and/or methane rich and even if the bats are adapted to breathe it, you aren't.

Thanks for your input. I'm not too worried about how little life there is in a typical "living" cave; if that's not fixed by surface water coming in, it can be fixed by fantastic creatures that can eat rock, or something similar. If you make the thing deep enough, the ecosystem can be powered by magma, like around sea vents. But I am annoyed that there is so little available information to help me. I, too, found almost nothing in the way of maps of Mammoth Cave, even for purchase. Maybe I'll contact the NPS or file a FOIA.

Also thanks for your advice. I don't truly want to go to the massive effort required to convert a real-life cavern into a playable dungeon; I just want to stick an entrance to an inhabited cave complex into the bottom of Tresendar Manor in Lost Mine of Phandelver, and have it be believable and plausible, even to a hypothetical speleologist. And as it seems that no one has done something like this, I'm willing to—if I can find suitable maps.
 
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aramis erak

Legend
Less geophysical and more geopolitical, one of my PCs looked at one of my countries that has 19 separate cult controlled (but allied) areas and said something like:

"You cant have 19 things like that, the only example in the world is the US with its 50 states."

I had, of course, done research on my world to keep it feeling real - Pointed him to details on Iraq - Which is about the same size as the country I created. Iraq has 18 provinces. 18 vs 19 for about same land area. I think I hit the number about perfectly for a real world feeling. :)

I'll just call the PC a little too misinformed about the world outside the USA.
Smoss

Mexico has 31 states...

Japan has 47...

England over 20...

Lots of room for variety in numbers of subunits...
 


Derren

Hero
Whenever your players roll their eyes about over the top evil temples, show them pictures of the Sedlec Ossuary
sedlec-ossuary-interior.jpg


Sedlec-Ossuary-coat-of-arms.jpg


Church-of-bones.jpg
 
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Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
Also, it bears noting that that and other ossuaries were made, not by evil empires as a show of force, but by devoutly religious people as a display of reverence.
 

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