[Very Long] Combat as Sport vs. Combat as War: a Key Difference in D&D Play Styles...

Majoru Oakheart

Adventurer
"The Hobbit" and "The Lord of the Rings" are CaW.
Some of these can easily be simulated through CaS techniques. For example:
1st level rogue Bilbo finding the Ring of Power = CaW (possibly in OD&D through 3.5e or Pathfinder, but impossible in 4e, I might add)
This ring wasn't very powerful. It turned you invisible. Plus, it has such a huge draw back for turning you invisible that it was basically worthless. I'd give that ring to a level 1 group without blinking.
Escaping the Nazgul by riding across running water = CaW
In a CaS game, you've planned for this. You put the Nazgul in the game thinking that they were way too powerful for your PCs to fight, you intended them to run and put the water there in their path to give them the idea to cross it. You made the DC low enough to guarantee their success. But it feels epic.
Hobbits getting the ents to fight Isengard = CaW
As long as it was an appropriate skill challenge, this seems like a typical "As the DM, I purposefully threw a challenge to the PCs(attack Isengard) that I knew they couldn't handle so they'd have to seek help and I'd get to run them through a social skill challenge." situation.
Aragorn gathering the undead to fight Sauron's army = CaW
Very similar to the above.
Hobbit and a woman defeating the head Nazgul through rules lawyering and a massive critical hit = CaW
This is more just a huge plot device. CaW I view as outsmarting the enemy and coming up with tactics that aren't "I attack the enemy" to defeat them. This isn't one of those situations. They just attacked the enemy and won.
Frodo and Samwise sneaking around dressed as orcs = CaW
This sort of qualifies as CaW, but is likely very similar to the above examples. The PCs were purposefully given a challenge that they couldn't overcome and then given a way out of it that was level appropriate.

If the Hobbit covered the entire land in pit traps and then defeated the entire Orc army by luring into their trap, I'd agree.
Sending two hobbits to sneak into Sauron's base and sneakily destroy him by a technicality instead of a boss fight = priceless ultimate CaW
There was no way to defeat Sauron except destroying the ring. It's not like there was an alternative. It was set up by the DM in advance as a backstory with NPCs explaining how it was the ONLY way.

I see CaW play as specifically working AROUND a battle.

Here's what I see as a better example of CaW play:
Lich who has been attacking the city and killing people sends a letter to the PCs inviting him to his tower to see if they can defeat his traps and minions, and challenge him to one final confrontation to the death.

The CaS method of running this is to have the PCs go through the front door, solving puzzles, finding traps, and fighting a variety of battles until they reach the Lich and battle him.

The CaW version of this is that the PCs hire an entire army with siege weapons to knock down the tower or put kegs of gun powder at the base and explode it or send the invisible flying rogue up to the window on the top floor to steal the Lich's phylactery and destroy it.

Even on top of that, however, I will freely admit(and I have in other posts) that most media(books, movies, and the like) tend to use CaW solutions to problems. But that's because when there is an all powerful author who is able to guarantee that things turn out the way they want, it's easy to do CaW type play. If the author wants an epic battle, he can simply write that the characters don't come up with any better way than to fight. If he wants a CaW solution to feel really epic, he can arrange it so that things that are nearly impossible succeed or that enough complications come up that something that seemed like an easy win turns out to only win at the last second due to luck.

As a DM, you don't have the benefit of being able to control things with enough precision to use these techniques. You don't control the PCs actions and you don't control their die rolls. It's likely that when you WANT the PCs to do a drag out, big battle that they'll instead just do something anticlimactic and defeat the enemy in one shot.
 

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"The Hobbit" and "The Lord of the Rings" are CaW.

CaS straight down the line. Especially in Fellowship the pattern is tense moment-comforting safety-tense moment-comforting safety-tense moment-comforting safety...

1st level rogue Bilbo finding the Ring of Power = CaW (possibly in OD&D through 3.5e or Pathfinder, but impossible in 4e, I might add)

Arguable. Plot McGuffin with a massive drawback.

Escaping the Nazgul by riding across running water = CaW

CaS. Why did the Nazgul attack there unless the water was there for that purpose?

Hobbits getting the ents to fight Isengard = CaW

Aragorn gathering the undead to fight Sauron's army = CaW

You mean gathering the armies put there for the purpose now counts as CaW? CaS straight down the line. Aragorn fetching the undead I'd argue is something I'd expect to see in a shared narrative game with Aragorn burning half a dozen plot points to place the undead who owed him an oath right there.

Hobbit and a woman defeating the head Nazgul through rules lawyering and a massive critical hit = CaW

If playing off the exact text of prophecies isn't S, I don't know what the hell is. It was put there with the loophole to be exploited. That's not rules lawyering. It's prophecy lawyering - something with an ancient tradition and that is very S.

Frodo and Samwise sneaking around dressed as orcs = CaW

No. Aragorn and Boromir sneaking around dressed as orcs might be CaW.

From Tolkeingateway
Hobbits were between two to four feet tall, the average height being 3 feet 6 inches, with slightly pointed ears and oversized furry feet with leathery soles, resulting in most never wearing shoes.

From Tolkeingateway
In Tolkien's writing, Orcs are described as humanoid, roughly human-sized, ugly and filthy.

Let me get this straight. Two three foot tall hobbits disguised themselves as five foot tall orcs.

Sending two hobbits to sneak into Sauron's base and sneakily destroy him by a technicality instead of a boss fight = priceless ultimate CaW

Sending two hobbits on a Hail Mary Pass mission supported by the power of the plot to do with the McGuffin what it was intended for? CaS. CaW would be sending infiltrators in and dynamiting Sauron's tower.

CaS straight down the line.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
1st level rogue Bilbo finding the Ring of Power = CaW
It's not combat, at all, it's a story element

(possibly in OD&D through 3.5e or Pathfinder, but impossible in 4e, I might add)
The One Ring is clearly an artifact. Classic D&D artifact placement? Roll a particular % result on a random treasure table. Possible, but not likely. 4e Artifact placement? Story-based, with a character keeping the artifact for a a time before it 'moves on' in some way. Sounds exactly right.

Escaping the Nazgul by riding across running water = CaW
Monster knowledge. (OD&D player knows or guesses; 3e/4e Knowledge check).

Hobbits getting the ents to fight Isengard = CaW
Story. (BTW: OD&D, RP and arbitrary DM call; 3e, fixed diplomacy DC; 4e skill challenge).

Aragorn gathering the undead to fight Sauron's army = CaW
Deus ex machina, a bit, too.

Hobbit and a woman defeating the head Nazgul through rules lawyering and a massive critical hit = CaW
Story. Like in MacBeth. She doesn't kill the Nazgul because she's badass or because she was played ruthlessly or cleverly - she killed it because she was fated too, by the very charm that supposedly made him invulnerable.

Frodo and Samwise sneaking around dressed as orcs = CaW
Disguise (Bluff) check in those eds that have 'em.
 


dd.stevenson

Super KY
I have no bone to pick about CaS/CaW, but the Tolkien geek in me can't pass this up.

CaS. Why did the Nazgul attack there unless the water was there for that purpose?

Because the river was only fordable at this point, making it a natural bottleneck. When the three Nazgul couldn't find the fellowship in the wilderness, they set up an ambush there.


From Tolkeingateway
Hobbits were between two to four feet tall, the average height being 3 feet 6 inches, with slightly pointed ears and oversized furry feet with leathery soles, resulting in most never wearing shoes.

From Tolkeingateway
In Tolkien's writing, Orcs are described as humanoid, roughly human-sized, ugly and filthy.

Let me get this straight. Two three foot tall hobbits disguised themselves as five foot tall orcs.

The typical orcs were man sized, but there were also the smaller goblin breeds who were good at tracking by smell and handy with bows and arrows. From the site you linked:

Tolkien loosely implies that there are actually several different breeds of Orcs, not simply in the wide variety in clans, but strains of Orc that were specifically bred for certain tasks.

The Fellowship usually encounters the large soldier-Orcs bred for war, and sometimes the "snaga" variety which were more geared towards being labourers. However, a strong hint at the variety of Orc breeds is when Frodo and Sam are in Mordor, and realize that they are being followed by two Orcs, then hide to observe them. One of the Orcs is a normal soldier-Orc, but the other is described as a "Snuffler", a breed specifically geared towards being a tracker. This tracker-Orc was, compared to the soldier-Orc, physically unimposing, but had vastly overdeveloped sensory organs, particularly a single giant nostril. While physically weak compared to the soldier-Orc, the "snuffler" was able to skilfully kill the soldier-orc when they got into a disagreement.
 

pemerton

Legend
To me, a system supports a style of play if it works (is functional) for that style of play without meaningful modification and doesn't discourage or 'punish' it in some mechanical way.
That's probably a minimum criterion for support, yes.

Can that work for the 3.5/Pathfinder set & 'CaW?'
I think that combat-as-war tends to rely on a low level of metagame mecahnics (hit points perhaps being an exception, although that said many classic combat-as-war tricks - like rock-to-mudding one's enemies, or using poison - depend upon bypassing the hit point mechanics).

We haven't yet seen much indication of how metagame-y the core D&Dn mechanics will be.

I will freely admit(and I have in other posts) that most media(books, movies, and the like) tend to use CaW solutions to problems. But that's because when there is an all powerful author who is able to guarantee that things turn out the way they want, it's easy to do CaW type play. If the author wants an epic battle, he can simply write that the characters don't come up with any better way than to fight. If he wants a CaW solution to feel really epic, he can arrange it so that things that are nearly impossible succeed or that enough complications come up that something that seemed like an easy win turns out to only win at the last second due to luck.

As a DM, you don't have the benefit of being able to control things with enough precision to use these techniques. You don't control the PCs actions and you don't control their die rolls. It's likely that when you WANT the PCs to do a drag out, big battle that they'll instead just do something anticlimactic and defeat the enemy in one shot.
There are mechanical ways of desigining a game so that it will deliver play close to your "authorially moderated CaW". But they will involve giving players access to metagame abilities that would be at odds with classic combat-as-war play sensibilities - and would tend to turn the game (as opposed to the story resulting from gameplay) into something more sporting.
 

Hassassin

First Post
Can't recall if I've mentioned it in this thread, but...

You hear a lot about a system 'supporting' a style of play. I'm guessing that means different things to different people.

To me the minimum for 'supporting' a certain style of play means that 1) it is works without a lot of gotchas, and 2) it doesn't encourage players away from that style. Some encouraging rules are probably a good idea, but they can be optional.

5e is clearly leaning towards my definition of 'support' - it wants to support lots of playstyles, including innately incompatible ones. To work, that'll have to involve a lot more 'not discouraging' than 'rewarding.' Or to involve more DM-dictated modules than have been suggested so far, I suppose...

I agree. As long as any of the rules that reward a certain play style over others (e.g. any rewards for narration) are in optional rules/modules, it should work.

Can that work for the 3.5/Pathfinder set & 'CaW?'

Sure. The only area where CAW and CAS are in a direct mechanical conflict is, IMO, how character resources - including health - restore. Other things that support one or the other can usually be ignored just fine: e.g. a lot of CAW support in spells is just "fluff" in CAS, whereas the equivalent of 4e page 42 is "rules" in CAS and probably ignored in CAW.
 

Hassassin

First Post
Monster knowledge. (OD&D player knows or guesses; 3e/4e Knowledge check).

Story. (BTW: OD&D, RP and arbitrary DM call; 3e, fixed diplomacy DC; 4e skill challenge).

Deus ex machina, a bit, too.

Story. Like in MacBeth. She doesn't kill the Nazgul because she's badass or because she was played ruthlessly or cleverly - she killed it because she was fated too, by the very charm that supposedly made him invulnerable.

The mechanics of how a certain situation is resolved don't really matter for whether it's CAW or CAS. If the idea is to avoid a direct "fair" fight (equally powerful sides or not) in favor of "cheating" some way, it is probably CAW. Finding allies (independent or henchmen) is common in CAW style D&D. Whether the combat is then resolved in the background ("story") or in the foreground with NPCs participating in regular combat mechanics also doesn't matter. IMO, of course.
 

S'mon said:
BTW, just to be clear, are you including 20th level Archmages there? Surely they'd all have Fly or similar? And unless you somehow ambush them they'll have it precast - in fact they're exremely hard to even reach in the first place. An M-U 20 standing on the ground in front of a high level PC group is just committing suicide.

I wonder if I can summon [MENTION=326]Upper_Krust[/MENTION] to reminisce about our old campaign. It seems to have been almost the Platonic opposite of yours.

Whats all this caper about [MENTION=463]S'mon[/MENTION]? I just got back from holiday and have an annoying bout of flu and my head's a bit melted.
 


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