D&D 5E [Very Long Indeed] Reconciling Combat as War and Combat as Sports in 5ed

S'mon

Legend
Hence, "in the absence of consumables". I start almost all campaigns at 1st level and only those magic items can be found that are consistent with the campaign. CLW wand is something I don't want to see.

I always reduce wand charges. In my Pathfinder Beginner Box game, clw wands start with 5 charges, market price 150gp, making them slightly more expensive than scrolls. Items generally cannot be purchased, except the occasional potion of healing and maybe the rare +1 weapon, armour or shield. And PCs don't get item creation feats! :D
 

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Fanaelialae

Legend
What does each side want and how do we give it to them?

The Sliding Scale of Meaning vs. Balance

I think the question you missed is why can't you have PC death on the line every combat? Shouldn't that be a significant point of combat?

That's one of the reasons I like 4e. In earlier editions, I often had to hold back or "play dumb" in order to avoid an excessively rotating cast of player characters. In 4e, I can go all out and be assured that although the players may feel hard pressed, I'm not going to make the death rate skyrocket. PCs still die in our games, just not every session. Having PC death a reality in every encounter is not the same thing to me as, say, PCs only having a 50% chance of surviving any given encounter. Since PCs can be expected to fight dozens, or even hundreds, of encounters during their adventuring careers, even a relatively low chance of death can (and most likely will) result in deaths.

I may be completely wrong about this, but I think Harlem Globetrotters CaS falls somewhere between a myth and an uncommon play style. I don't really see why it would appeal to anyone. If you know you're going to win, why not just skip the combat (or narrate your victory)? In our games, virtually every encounter has the potential for character death.

I also think it's mistaken to say that you can't have encounter balance with a sequence of encounters. I agree if what you meant to say is that you can't ever perfectly create balance in a sequence, but since my first few 4e sessions I've been pretty good at creating a sequence of challenging encounters that have a high chance of leaving the party with only a few surges and no dailies, but doesn't result in a TPK. The fact that I attain such results with regularity indicates to me that the balance is pretty good.

I think a major factor in 4e in having fairly steady encounter balance is that significantly less resources are tied to the adventure day, but rather the encounter.

In earlier editions, almost everything was effectively a daily resource. Sure, the fighter could attack at will, but his hp were tied to the cleric, who was in turn tied to a daily healing resource (let's ignore wands of CLW for now, as limit circumventing magic items are tangential to this discussion). A fighter without hp couldn't attack, after all, and a fighter at low hp would be reluctant to. Thieves could find traps at will, but were similarly limited by hp. Wizards were also tied to daily spells.

4e changed this, by tying things more closely to the encounter level. As we've seen from the Essentials classes, dailies are hardly necessary for the classes to work. However, we have yet to see a 4e class without at-will and encounter powers. Even healing surges, which are technically daily in nature, exist in sufficient quantities that the likelihood of expending them all in a single encounter is virtually nonexistent, and rather than everyone being dependent on the cleric's limited pool of spells for hp, every character comes with their own pool of surges. As a result, the outcome of a sequence of encounters can be predicted with a high degree of reliability.

Now, admittedly, if you return to the earlier method of balancing along the adventure day, attrition is the way to go.

However, things become far less predictable, so it's a pretty heavy trade-off. It also excludes certain play styles completely (low combat campaigns, where attrition is not a factor because you'll almost never see more than one combat per day). 4e doesn't do the one combat perfectly (due to the possibility of daily nova) but I think it could. It should be possible to create a chart that indicates how much you should increase the xp value of an encounter to account for it being the only one the PCs will see that day. I've eyeballed such encounters with good success.

I even think you could achieve an encounter balanced design that still allows vancian wizards. They would need less (daily) spells though. Let's assume that 5e baseline is that there are 4 encounters per day, each lasting 5 rounds, and that a wizard should cast 2 daily spells in a typical encounter (the rest of the time he uses at-will feats, because spell conservation is an important aspect of the vancian mage). Therefore, a wizard gets 8 spell slots. Since an encounter is expected to last 5 rounds, WotC can estimate the number of extra enemies you should add to an encounter where a wizard casts 5 spells, in order to get that combat to last 5 rounds. Give the DM that chart, and he suddenly knows what to do if he only wants to run a single encounter, despite daily resources in the mix.

I do think, however, that healing surges (or something like them) are a necessity. Otherwise, hp recovery becomes reliant on the cleric's limited resources again, and that will create vast descrepancies in party potency. A party of 3 fighters and 1 cleric will have far less lasting power than a party of 2 fighters and 2 clerics, and any ability to predict outcomes goes right out the window.

The Glory of Attrition

I agree that minimizing things that aid in the 15 MWD is a good way to go, regardless of which play style you prefer.

Just to point out an alternative (though one that would be highly unpopular), you could completely eliminate the 15 MWD by eliminating all daily resources. If all of the party's resources are AW/E, then they have absolutely no incentive to rest. I do realize that this extreme isn't really desirable though.

I think it's important to note for this discussion, however, that the 15MWD arises from attrition. Eliminate attrition and you eliminate any reason to rest (again, not something that's entirely desirable).

The Glory of Tactical Play

Tactical play will always take longer than non-tactical play, IMO. Just make it modular (preferably so that I can run one fight non-tactically and the next tactically) and the DM can decide what is most appropriate.

It would be a little amusing if the length of CaS-style tactical combats was there to encourage CaW-style strategic play. Don't like the length of combat in 5e? Figure out a way to drop a flaming hut on your enemies, and you won't have to play though that lengthy combat! ;)

The Glory of Strategic Play

I’d like to see this kind of spell be the core of the 5ed Wizard class and have the Wizard be relatively weak at straight-up combat in order to compensate for its strategic utility (with more blasty casters being possible, just not the Wizard default).

I really don't like this idea. Firstly, it marginalizes the Wizard for CaS style play. Secondly, it reinforces the stereotype that CaW players use spells as a crutch, and that casters are the only thing worth playing in a CaW style game. It's not that I'm against the idea of using spells for CaW. However, I don't think that magic should win the CaW "Most Valuable Resource" award, despite that it traditionally has. I think you can encourage player creativity far more if there isn't a go-to magical solution for everything and anything.


Personally, I much prefer encounter-based balance to any other variety. That's not to say that there isn't room for one class to be superior in a given encounter (though I don't think any individual class should be superior for a majority of encounters) but I really enjoy the predictability that encounter balance provides. I like being able to challenge my players without having a supposedly CR 7 creature kill the level 6 psychic warrior in a single round.

While I don't think encounter balance is inimical to CaW players, I find that those who prefer CaW don't seem to like encounter balance. It might be because it reduces the amount of swing present in the game, and CaW players seem to prefer the game swingy. If that is the case, it might be possible to preserve encounter balance in CaW style play by simply offering some swingy options for CaW players. Of course, that's not to say that CaW players should put a Level 5 Dragon in lieu of an Ancient Dragon just because the party is level 5, but rather that the DM would understand just how much that Ancient outclasses the party by (until they come up with a clever strategem to eliminate its advantages).

Perhaps a bit rambling, but those are my thoughts on the matter.
 

pemerton

Legend
Unless a PC death is on the line every single fight, you cannot have both meaningful fights and balanced encounters. To use 4ed terminology, if each combat is followed by an extended rest, then the ONLY way a combat can have any influence on the characters is if a character dies, everything else gets reset.
I get the impression you are positing this a priori, rather than deriving it from experience. From experience, I can suggeset that it is not true.

What I would emphasise is the importance of keeping uncertainty in combat (this relates closely to your discussion of variable situation). It's the uncertainty that keeps combat exciting even when the baseline threat level is low.
Having PC death a reality in every encounter is not the same thing to me as, say, PCs only having a 50% chance of surviving any given encounter.
These posts give one illustration of how encounters can be balanced yet tactically meaningful within PC death being on the line to any significant extent: the abilities of the participants in a fight - both antagonists and protagonists - can be configured so that death is not a serious threat provided that the players play their PCs with mechanical and tactical cleverness.

An action resolution system can be designed to increase or decrease the scope for this sort of play. The scope for this sort of play in Basic D&D, or in Runequest, is comparatively low, because there are few or no choices to be made about how a player is to deploy his/her mechanical resources: you just point your PC in the right directionand roll your dice! (These sorts of mechanical designs can also support combat-as-war, because they encourage the players - whose intrinsic resources are sparse - to look to the gameworld to gain useable resources to bring to bear on action resolution.)

Conversely, a game like Rolemaster or 4e increases the scope for play in which victory is (near-)certain provided the play is clever, because they have action resolution mechanics with multiple moving parts and decision-points by players: in RM, how much of my bonus do I allocate to attack, and how much to defence? in 4e, which of the several powers that I have available do I use?

I thought I'd mention that fights have other stakes, and that careful scene framing from the GM can set this up even with mechanically balanced encounters. I think pemerton would probably mention his party moving in cautiously against some bad guys who were performing a ritual, and that one of the two captives that they were trying to rescue getting sacrificed. This led to the party acting more recklessly and proactively, saving the other captive.

This is but one example of a "meaningful fight" with a balanced encounter. The PCs have something at stake other than their lives, and how they deal with the encounter (and how it plays out) will determine exactly what influence the fight had on the character(s).
Agreed. Another example: the time the PCs came to the top of the tower, hoping to rescue the baron's niece, only to find that the niece was in fact a necromancer performing some sort of ritual over a half-open sarcophagus. Fight? Negotiate? And then, a couple of rounds later, when Kas comes out of the sarcophagus, what do the PCs do? Fight? Negotiate? (answers here).

This sort of "stakes other than dying" combat benefits from a mechanical system in which combats are mechanically interesting and engaging over a range of possible threats - so that whether or not the PCs decide to fight Kas, the combat is still in an interesting range between easy and TPK. 4e, at least in my experience, fits this requirement.

So how to make combat meaningful, even though most combats will be stacked in the favor of the PCs (or at least in favor of the PCs being able to escape)? The only real answer is attrition.

<snip>

Do you think this would satisfy most people or is it too tilted towards my own preferences?
I think it is tilted towards your preferences. It may be that your preferences overlap heavily with those of many others, though not so much with mine. I find attrition a pretty boring stake in combat, and haven't played a game (D&D or otherwise) in which attrition was the main stake in combat since the mid-80s.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
Ok. What then? Winning adventures? Winning the game? :confused:
By 'winning a cooperative game' I mean beating your fellow players in some sense. Out-performing or out-shining or otherwise reaping disproportionate rewards for you system mastery or general brilliance.

Yes. All reasons why I don't like high level 3e. I wouldn't want high level 5e to look anything like that.
The healing up between combats with wands of CLW can start at level 2, and no later than level 5 (when the wizard can take Craft Wand and team up with the Cleric to make one) or 6 (when the Cleric - or Druid or Bard - can take the feat on his own).

Vancian casters exceed the daily attack-spell capacity of 30th level casters around 3rd level, throw in encounters and it's 5th. The sheer volume of spells makes it a very different game.
 

Daztur

Adventurer
To get back to where I left off...

Response to Tony Vargas:


Encounter balance: nothing wrong with difficulty-gauging tools.

Class balance: well even within 4ed itself you have classes like the Slayer without any dailies (right?) are they unbalanced compared to fighters with dailies. But you’re right; if you have some classes that can Nova and some that can’t you either yoke yourself to certain forms of pacing or throw balance off. I think that throwing balance off in that way is an unfortunate price worth paying. However it can be mitigated in certain ways, if every adventure has a bunch of stuff in it and all of that stuff wears down character resources and all classes have their resources worn down in different ways then balance can be maintained. For example, if the PCs are fresh and will have only one fight before getting an Extended Rest then the Wizard can throw caution to the wind and rain fire but the Fighter can also throw caution to the wind and switch to an all-out offensive combat stance and do massive damage at the cost of running out of HPs. Similarly make sure that out-of-combat stuff uses up Wizard spell slots as well (and that Fighters are better at skills than Wizards) so that you don’t NEED combat to wear down the Wizard dailies.

CaW = Powergamer/munchkin: well that’s basically true. Under my definition CaS/CaW are both subsets of Gamism (to whatever extent that GNS makes sense) so they’re both about winning. For me playing to win is part of D&D, just not the only part. A CaW player who ONLY cared about that aspect of D&D would definitely be a powergamer, as would a CaS player.

Encounter based design: I mean everything in 4ed (and late-3.5ed) that focuses mechanically on the encounter level.

Expended rest: the basic idea is to only let players refresh their resources once per iteration of going back and forth from their home back to into the field, or the equivalent, the exact mechanism for doing that isn't important (I like the one week rest since it makes the world lower magic without really affecting PCs during adventures). This makes attrition much nastier since you can't rest up in the field (usually) and makes it possible for PCs to get worn down over the course of long Tolkien-style journeys (something that D&D has always struggled a bit with).

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Response to Hassassin

Agreed that in 4ed (and 3ed thanks to CLW wands) it's too easy to get all resources back with 8 hours of rest, this could be a problem in earlier editions as well, but players didn't bounce back quite so hard with one night's rest in those editions.

As for the 15 Minute Adventuring Week, note that under my proposal you'd only be able to get a full rest in a safe place (not some random dungeon room) and I think that a week is long enough to wipe out food stores and the like while still letting players have adventures that take more than a day to complete.

I agree that the lines between encounters should be blurred, if they're too sharp it starts to feel artificial.

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Response to S'Mon:

"On 4e extended rests - I definitely think that for many campaigns it would be better if an ER took a week in a comfy locale, while an overnight rest restored perhaps 1 Healing Surge. This would allow for a much lower default threat level to still be exciting, while still allowing for occasional spike encounters. It would also greatly increase versimilitude; I have a big problem with the 0 Healing Surge, 1 hp from negative bloodied, 1 death save from death PC who receives no magical healing but is still back to 100% health 6 hours later."

My thoughts exactly, although I was thinking that an overnight rest would allow you to spend your healing surges more efficiently, not recover them.

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Response to James Courage:

" The PCs have something at stake other than their lives, and how they deal with the encounter (and how it plays out) will determine exactly what influence the fight had on the character(s)."

Exactly my thoughts, having a variety of stakes is important to spicing up combat (the only thing that I think matters as much is interesting and varied terrain).

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Response to Mostlyjoe:

"That is not to say 4E didn't support some non-linear tactical thinking, it just didn't reward it as much."

It also made it harder for the DM to adjudicate it, since a lot of the information that DMs could use to adjudicate non-linear tactics don't exist in 4ed. For example 4ed doesn't tell you if putting wax in your ears will stop a Succubus from charming you, but 1ed does, there's a bunch of little things like that but they add up.

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Response to Fanaelialae:

"I think the question you missed is why can't you have PC death on the line every combat? Shouldn't that be a significant point of combat?"

Because it either:
1. It makes the game very very deadly.
2. Requires a lot of resurrection magic.
3. Requires fights to be rare (not a bad thing, but something that runs counter to most D&D games).

"In 4e, I can go all out and be assured that although the players may feel hard pressed, I'm not going to make the death rate skyrocket."

But if you can go all-out and the players still don't die, then isn't it the case that for most combats things are skewed enough towards the PCs that death isn't really on the line in most of your fights?

Will get caught up on the rest when I have time.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
Class balance: well even within 4ed itself you have classes like the Slayer without any dailies (right?) are they unbalanced compared to fighters with dailies.
Well, Essentials, but yes, they are out of balance with AEDU classes. IMHO, it would be more propper to say the AEDU classes aren't as balanced as the daililess ones, but I suppose it's relative.

But you’re right; if you have some classes that can Nova and some that can’t you either yoke yourself to certain forms of pacing or throw balance off. I think that throwing balance off in that way is an unfortunate price worth paying. However it can be mitigated in certain ways, if every adventure has a bunch of stuff in it and all of that stuff wears down character resources and all classes have their resources worn down in different ways then balance can be maintained.
Nod. I've seen DMs running 3.x go through that to try to keep the game functional. It was a price worth paying at the time, because there was no alternative. Now that we've had a taste of a more balanced D&D, though, it'll be unpleasant to go back to.

CaW = Powergamer/munchkin: well that’s basically true. Under my definition CaS/CaW are both subsets of Gamism (to whatever extent that GNS makes sense) so they’re both about winning.
Hmmm... hadn't thought of it that way.

Encounter based design: I mean everything in 4ed (and late-3.5ed) that focuses mechanically on the encounter level.
I think 'based design' is out of place, then.

Expended rest: the basic idea is to only let players refresh their resources once per iteration of going back and forth from their home back to into the field, or the equivalent, the exact mechanism for doing that isn't important
Given enough latitude in that would free the DM from some of the above problems. But, it might seem pretty arbitrary from the player's PoV. The alternative of simply balancing class resources so class balance isn't impacted by different pacing just seems a more elegant, more complete solution.



Agreed that in 4ed (and 3ed thanks to CLW wands) it's too easy to get all resources back with 8 hours of rest, this could be a problem in earlier editions as well, but players didn't bounce back quite so hard with one night's rest in those editions.
Considering the sheer number (and power) of spells that could be recovered in one rest, I think they did bounce back pretty hard. But, sure, at low levels in early eds, that 1 hp/day was pretty pathetic...

It also made it harder for the DM to adjudicate it, since a lot of the information that DMs could use to adjudicate non-linear tactics don't exist in 4ed. For example 4ed doesn't tell you if putting wax in your ears will stop a Succubus from charming you, but 1ed does,
The 1e MM entry on the Succubus does not mention stopping your ears with wax or deafness, at all. It does say that it can use Charm Person and Suggestion, among other things, 'at will.' Suggestion, IIRC, required the victim hear you, while Charm Person did not (but if he didn't, it'd be harder to persuade him to help you using gestures than just talking, which I don't think any ed needs to spell out).
 

Fanaelialae

Legend
Response to Fanaelialae:

"I think the question you missed is why can't you have PC death on the line every combat? Shouldn't that be a significant point of combat?"

Because it either:
1. It makes the game very very deadly.
2. Requires a lot of resurrection magic.
3. Requires fights to be rare (not a bad thing, but something that runs counter to most D&D games).

"In 4e, I can go all out and be assured that although the players may feel hard pressed, I'm not going to make the death rate skyrocket."

But if you can go all-out and the players still don't die, then isn't it the case that for most combats things are skewed enough towards the PCs that death isn't really on the line in most of your fights?

No, because if they make mistakes or have unlucky rolls, death suddenly makes its presence known at the table. The threat is always there, because the PCs know that they're only a few mistakes (or bad die rolls) away from having death dogging their heels.

As I tried to explain, you don't need a high death rate for death to be present because PCs can be expected to fight many combats in a campaign. For example, let's take a very low rate of death (1% chance per combat). If I have 300 combats during the course of my campaign, then the odds are that 3 characters died. That means that, at the typical gaming table of 4 or 5 players, more than half of them lost a character during my campaign. If the majority of players at the table lose a character during a campaign, I wouldn't call that nonexistent death. And based on my experience, even 4e has a higher death rate than 1%.

CaS style tactical play skews that even more, because that death rate is only assumed if you play well. If you just point your character at a random creature and roll the dice, you can expect to die with far greater frequency.

Edit: Let me also add that I think that CaS style play engenders more love for one's character, so that it's more of a loss when it does happen. We've all heard stories of old-school CaW play where players just named their new character Bob X+1, because Bob III wasn't expected to outlast Bob II by much. That may be part of the reason why the threat of death is more of an issue for one style than the other.

Second Edit: I've gone to significant lengths in the past in order to avoid having to roll even just a 5% (natural 1) chance of death, such as hopping over a bottomless pit with a Jump check that can only fail on a 1. In my opinion, even a 5% chance of death is quite high if it regards a character I care about (this of course assumes low availability for resurrection, as is the case in some of my campaigns).

In contrast, I've had a character I cared about willingly throw himself off of a cliff in order to get at a BBEG riding a wyvern, so to an extent, risk vs reward also factors into it. In the first case, there was little reward other than continuing the adventure (it was a mere obstacle), so it was high risk for very little reward (the same reward I get for walking forward through the "dungeon"). In the second case, it was an attempt to eliminate a BBEG that we all hated (high risk, but high reward). That attempt did pay off, fwiw.
 
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Hassassin

First Post
Balancing A/E/D Powers

A couple of things on balancing powers and classes. I use "power" to refer to any character ability, not just 4e powers. I only consider combat, as the topic is Combat as W/S.

Firstly, the problem:

  • A daily power can never be balanced with a less powerful encounter or at-will power, except by assuming a certain number of encounters per day.
  • Similarly, an encounter power can never be balanced with a less powerful at-will, except by assuming a certain number of actions per encounter.

Here are what I see as ways to "solve" the problem:

  1. Give everyone the same amount of each type of power (4e core).
  2. Assume a certain number of encounters/actions and enforce at least loose bounds (4e Essentials, 3e with very loose enforcement).
  3. Have daily/encounter powers be no more powerful than encounter/at-will powers.
  4. Throw class balance out of the window - or at least make it a low priority.

Number 1 is the only solution I totally oppose.

If number 2 is the solution, those bounds need to be tighter for CAS and looser for CAW. That can mean, for example, that the bounds come from optional mechanics (for encounters/day) and are only there for balanced encounters (for actions/encounter).

Number 3 is interesting, because you can still have the daily/encounter powers be very different from at-will powers. For example, assuming combat roles for the moment, you could have fighter be an at-will striker, with encounter and daily abilities giving him (balanced) defender or controller abilities. This still requires decent at-will powers for all classes, unless used in combination with one of the other solutions.

I hope the solution is a combination or 2 and 3 with some 4 depending on optional modules.
 

steenan

Adventurer
I don't think it's possible to achieve good balance without serious constraints on character, encounter and adventure structure - if the balance is static.

What is the alternative? Dynamic balance - one that uses a feedback. A system that reacts to character performance and sets up difficulties accordingly. It may be done by the mechanics working this way automatically, or by giving the GM tools to easily rebalance things on the fly and guidelines on when to do that.

Let's assume the system has low lethality, but reasonable chance of failure. In other words, in most combats it's not PC lives that is at stake, but something else they see as important. And some of the fights (somewhere between 1 in 3 to 1 in 5) are lost.

In such setup, it would be possible to let PCs recover some kind of resource (surges, daily powers or something like that) when they lose and subtly ramp up difficulty (eg. by increasing monster crit ranges or monster power recovery ranges) when they keep winning. By introducing this kind of negative feedback, the system becomes self-balancing. And player actions affect the balance point.

CaW players won't trivialize all encounters by strategy, but they can aim for long winning streaks. They still have the enjoyment of outwitting the opposition, but each victory makes the next one harder to achieve; at some point it's only their strategy and creativity that can keep them going, with all other factors stacked against them.

CaS players get their interesting, dramatic encounters, no matter how good they are tactically, because the encounters balance themselves to provide challenge without overpowering.

Of course, this approach is not perfect. For some players it may feel metagame and artificial. But I feel it solves a lot of problems with balance without putting too much work on the GM and has a potential of keeping various types of players happy.
 

Hassassin

First Post
Of course, this approach is not perfect. For some players it may feel metagame and artificial. But I feel it solves a lot of problems with balance without putting too much work on the GM and has a potential of keeping various types of players happy.

The problem isn't just the metagame feel - I think this solution suffers from the same problem as a level-scaling world: you can feel your growth and choices mean nothing, since the world will just shift to counter your move.

Of course, I haven't tried it and it would depend on the specifics, so I'm not dismissing it completely.
 

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