Worlds of Design: A Worthy End?

Is combat an end in itself, or is it a means to an end; and is that a worthy end?

Is combat an end in itself, or is it a means to an end; and is that a worthy end?

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Picture courtesy of Pixabay.

War is not a means to an end, it is the end, whereas politics is merely the hiatus between wars. - Norman Finkelstein

Why Are We Fighting?​

Long-term tabletop gamers may often ask themselves: is combat an end in itself, or is it a means to an end; and is that a worthy end? With many rulesets the answer is more or less built-in: combat is the center of all activity in a category that originated as wargames. But that doesn’t make it an end in itself, and the focus doesn’t mean there is a worthy end.

An answer in games can often be related to lethality in combat. The more lethal combat is for the player characters, the more they’re going to look for non-combat ways to solve their problems. If combat is hardly ever or never lethal, most players will indulge in combat whenever they feel like it.

It’s quite common in Dungeons & Dragons and its variants for combat to be a means to gathering treasure. Combat is a means rather than an end, but is the end a “worthy” one?

Combat to gain experience points (by killing “monsters”) becomes an end as well as a means. Getting experience points isn’t something we think about in the real world. For a warrior, it could be equated to “being successful in life.” Yet we can ask, as a means, is combat for experience points a worthy goal? For the more violently oriented the answer is probably yes, for those less violently oriented the answer will often be no.

Fourth edition D&D combat appeared to be an end in itself because the “strategic” parts of the game were largely stripped away – seemingly leaving combat and little else. Of course, as with most any RPG, the GM could work to restore the non-combat parts of the game if desired.

Are You Worthy?​

The initial question is not solely, end vs means, but also involves a means to a worthy end. This could be posed as a mission-oriented end rather than an essentially selfish end. This is all a matter of motivation.

The “murder-hobo” trope exists for a reason. Killing everything and taking its stuff has a long history in tabletop games, starting with Dungeons & Dragons but not ending there. The original rules certainly didn’t do anything to dissuade those players from believing that combat was the primary solution to every obstacle.

But it doesn’t have to be that way. Treasure-grubbing or XP point chasing are essentially selfish goals. Characters can be soldiers fighting against evil, not the mercenary searching for treasure. Integrity, doing “the right thing,” and other virtues come with it. The soldier is on a mission, a mission that means more than money or XP-grubbing, more than mere mayhem or slaughter.

Yet how many players care whether they behave in a “worthy” manner or have a worthy goal? How many worry about integrity or doing good works? I don’t know nowadays, but insofar as the Chaotic Neutral jerk stereotype exists, I suspect there are still those who play this way.

If it’s just a dungeon crawl, the mercenary and soldier might seem similar at first. This is where setting and story come into play; if there are moral consequences for actions, the distinction between soldier and mercenary becomes clear. It’s what happens after – in town, in the tavern, amongst civilized folk – where the difference comes into sharp relief. Mercenaries who have no tether to society but personal power are just as likely to murder the innkeeper as they are to pay him.

Does this matter? If your game never goes beyond dungeon crawling, maybe not. But for campaigns that want to explore more than just what’s gained at the point of a sword, the nuance can make for more interesting play.

You Turn: What is the purpose of combat in your games?
 

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Lewis Pulsipher

Lewis Pulsipher

Dragon, White Dwarf, Fiend Folio

Stormonu

Legend
I'm not talking about balancing, but a shift towards the desire to have combat. In older editions, initiating a combat was a dangerous prospect. You were likely outclassed from the onset and replenishing the resources lost to combat wasn't easy. The system was designed to nickle-and-dime you to death, if not outright kill you in an overwhelming encounter. The group wanted to get in an area and avoid as much trouble as possible and hurriedly get out.

Some of that changed in 2E, with the advent of roleplaying XP. Published adventures shifted more towards undertaking a story goal, but engaging in combat was still a very risky business. Adventures were designed with the intent the characters should put forethought into scouting, looking for secret side passages or interacting with monsters to avoid a confrontation, though set-piece unavoidable combats started to appear as story points.

In 3E, the entire XP system shifted to "defeating the encounter" - primarily via killing monsters. Budgets for encounters started to appear. While some adventures still featured overwhelming encounters (such as the Roper in Forge of Fury), they mostly got shouted at for being unfair. As the edition lagged on players more and more expected that any encounter they faced should be defeatable by brute force.

This reached a climax with the Delve format and 4E, with a "combat behind every door" and those combats being set-piece encounters. You were expected to fight and defeat anything thrown at you (look back at the outrage over Irontooth in Keep in the Shadowfell), and there was rarely ways to avoid or mitigate the fight as they had already been prebalanced to face the party's power, and the party had increasing ways to recover resources after each encounter.

5E is a bit of a mix. Encounters are built using budgets, encouraging a certain level of interaction. Facing encounters and killing monsters is still the default method, but there are other methods to gain XP that do not endorse the "hunt down and kill everything in sight" method of play. Players do have many resources to quickly recover after a fight, but they can slowly be drained over time. Many of the published adventures often have monster encounters that aren't expected to be overcome by rushing in to fight, and stealth or avoidance have a much better chance at success.

In short, it hasn't been that actual fights have changed so much over editions as much as the question "fight or avoid?"
 

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overgeeked

B/X Known World
To me, combat is the single most boring aspect of D&D. 4E made combat more interesting with all the powers and tactical options, but it took so long that it became boring again. If there’s no goal beyond “kill the monsters” then the fight is filler and serves no purpose beyond attrition of resources. So it’s boring again. At least with things like specific goals to combats beyond “kill everything,” integrated puzzles, and skill challenges you can make combat interesting and more involved than the all-too typical drudgery of “pick a place to stand and swing until the monsters are all dead.”
 

Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
The question them becomes "so you're rich, now what?"

AD&D had a framework for this, that you transitioned from a field combatant to a commander, and thus you were focusing your wealth accumulation on investing in a stronghold of some sort. Essentially, transitioning back to Chainmail style of miniatures play. I think there was an assumption that, since D&D came from Chainmail originally, that going back to Chainmail was somehow always the goal. D&D far surpassed its inspiration though, and not a lot of folks are content with "play a different game where you tell other folks what to do."
If the goal is wealth, what happens when you become wealthy?
You play the domain game. That's my answer anyway.
 

payn

He'll flip ya...Flip ya for real...
What is an end, and whether that end is "worthy" are not objective things.

Why is a particular player sitting at the table? What do they want out of playing? That is what defines the ends.

"Worthiness" is merely a judgement layered on top of that desired end.
This. I enjoy the combat part of the game as much as anyone, but I dont care for the overemphasis on it either. One of the best things I ever did was ditch XP for milestone advancement. I prefer organic play that is interesting and not purely in pursuit of mechanical advancement. Worth is in the eye of the beholder I dont care if the PCs are scoundrels or saints, as long as they are exploring, engaging, and enjoying themselves.
 

KYRON45

Explorer
While I don't have numbers and can't site any sources; it would seem that rules for combat takes up the lionshare of the word count in every version of D&D even if you don't count the wordiness of spell descriptions. I would assume that the game intends combat to be a means to an end. The worthiness of that end is for each of us to decide when the end is achieved. Could you have achieved the end without combat and would it be something you could have done based on how you built your character?

In my limited experience with RPGs (on and off for 40 years) characters built for combat either can or can't do what they set out to based on the math of any given situation. If you built a character to avoid combat with say diplomacy or sweet talk the end seems very much dependant on the DMs ability to process that situation. We all know that when either combatant is reduced to 0hp; one side has "won"...the end. It's more difficult to determine the outcome of a situation based on a clash of personalities. This is especially the case if the players themselves aren't wired for social "combat" and as such end up rolling a skill check.

Is a 60 second skill check to overcome a situation more "worthy" than a 60 min combat with thrills and spills and jokes and memorable quotes etc?

TLDR: D&D is a combat simulator no matter how hard we try to insinuate that it isn't. Most "social combat" rules end up not being much fun.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
This. I enjoy the combat part of the game as much as anyone, but I dont care for the overemphasis on it either. One of the best things I ever did was ditch XP for milestone advancement. I prefer organic play that is interesting and not purely in pursuit of mechanical advancement. Worth is in the eye of the beholder I dont care if the PCs are scoundrels or saints, as long as they are exploring, engaging, and enjoying themselves.
I fully agree with this except for the bolded: individual character-action-based xp are a hill I'll proudly die on.

Edit to add: as for the OP's question, combat in my game can have a number of purposes:

--- to kill the owners of stuff the PCs want
--- to defeat those who would take stuff the PCs already have
--- self-defense against predators
--- defense of others against raiders-attackers-etc.
--- as part of something bigger e.g. the PCs are part of an army in a war
--- for some parties, the sheer merry hell of it
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
... individual character-action-based xp are a hill I'll proudly die on.

Nobody is asking anyone to die. Do what you want in your game, ain't nobody coming to kill you.

And really, dying for a game... is a bit hyperbolic, hey what?
 


GMMichael

Guide of Modos
If the goal is wealth, what happens when you become wealthy?
I think you start shopping at Crate and Barrel instead of Ikea. The game transitions into deciding what kind of dining set defines you as a character.

Why is a particular player sitting at the table? What do they want out of playing? That is what defines the ends.
This should be a character-focused question, because the player can generally fall back on "having fun."
Q: Why is the character putting her neck in harm's way? Or for D&D: why is the character putting her neck in the way of hit point attrition? Is it something the character would consider worthy?

Here's one take from an eyeball-irritating vanilla Skyrim:
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
This should be a character-focused question, because the player can generally fall back on "having fun."

No, this is a player question, and unless they are very new at RPGs, they should be able to answer it, at Session Zero - it is at the root of play expectations and matching playstyles.
 

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