The Importance of Randomness

Tortoise

First Post
That said, I do agree to a certain extent with the premise of the thread: randomness is important. However, the next, and perhaps more important question, is: how much randomness is desirable? In particular, what is the proper balance point between randomness and player decisions and desires?

Similarly, while unpredicatbility can add spice to a game, too much unpredictability reduces the impact of planning and player decison-making. Players with a tactical mindset do want their choices to matter, and if the randomness factor is so overwhelming that they might as well be playing Snakes and Ladders, then they would certainly want to move on to another game.

Great question. Players are free to make their own decisions. This isn't like a game of Candyland where the die roll determines how many spaces along a track they move. Sure a randomly rolled encounter might result in them changing immediate plans, but that decision is entirely theirs to make.

An example again from the last session of my campaign, a random gnoll encounter resulted in a character needing extended rest due to the wizard nearly being killed. The party got her to safety then while she rested in a nearby town, they went back into the dungeon. Their choice, not the determination of a die-roll saying that was what they had to do.

Sandbox games require that the DM be running the show by working with what occasional die rolls offer up and the players making the decisions of how they plan to handle the things they discover. There is no railroad in the sandbox.
 

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JonWake

First Post
To some extent, your issue feels more like a bone to pick with lazy DMs who just want to run an "out of box" campaign. The problem you lay at 4e's feet isn't a problem if a DM takes the time to create their own adventure or at least puts a twist on an existing one.

And when you speak of randomness, I think of the real world, but the real world is ANYTHING by random. It's very, very predictable, that's why even in the most "unpredictable" environments such as the battlefield, people are still able to make educated guesses about what they're reasonably going to run into.

Wandering monsters is always something that has bothered me. Monsters don't "wander" for starters, they live in specific environments and only leave them for absolute necessities(or in the case of more intelligent creatures, boredom or mayhem). When wandering through the forest, the chance that you're going to run into anything more spectacular than a pack of wolves is fairly low. Giants, dragons, oozes, ect... these things live in specific places and are usually fairly keen on staying there.

It's far more likely for YOU to wander into their territory(which is often well marked by primitive signs or natural indications), and in such a case your more nature-savvy character should be able to give you a fair warning of where you should or shouldn't wander in the woods. Even the most unmapped forests are likely to have rumors and stories about them, which a party passing near said location is likely to pick up. It is even more unlikely to be walking down a well-used path and run into anything particularly monstrous, you're more likely to get robbed than attacked by a Hag or something.

Metagaming is such a silly term because it so much of it actually isn't, players are going to be genre savvy, if they're not, they're noobs(and that's fine), but they'll learn quickly. Anyone who's genre savvy or played the campaign for more than a few nights will quickly get a hang of how the DM likes to swing things and start checking for that.

In short: reality, which your randomness is trying to imitate, is anything but random(which is why we resort to fantasy in the first place!) Sure, you could have the players mapping an unknown forest in an isolated location with no surrounding civilization, but even then aside from breaking all the rules through hand-waving and saying "well it's magic, so there!" even a cursory glance at the forest will give them some expectation of what to find there. Are there fae? Is it swampy and dank? Is it tall and overgrown? It is cold and snowy? This will quickly give any savvy player a good idea of what they might run into, and a vague idea of even the wildest threats they might encounter.

Honestly, I don't favor a "random" world, I favor a predictable one. It's much more fun to watch the party prepare for the possibility of fighting the green dragon that supposedly lives in the forest and yet never come across it, but instead just get dicked around by the dragon's magic. I would rather my players prepare for a wide range of events that COULD happen, rather than be caught off guard by the Frost Wurm that's wandering through the desert because I rolled 99 on my table of random events.

Random is often no more fun than totally railroaded. Things should be fairly predictable in what DOES happen, but less so in what COULD happen.

That's a very elaborate straw man you've constructed there.
 


Tortoise

First Post
Wandering monsters is always something that has bothered me. Monsters don't "wander" for starters, they live in specific environments and only leave them for absolute necessities(or in the case of more intelligent creatures, boredom or mayhem). When wandering through the forest, the chance that you're going to run into anything more spectacular than a pack of wolves is fairly low. Giants, dragons, oozes, ect... these things live in specific places and are usually fairly keen on staying there.

It's far more likely for YOU to wander into their territory

I disagree. Do you travel to and from work? Do you go to the grocery store or the dentist/doctor? Do you visit friends to game? Have you ever left your town, county, or state to handle some important task or attend a convention? Ever need to go find a bathroom? These are all examples of wandering which is exactly what random encounters represent.

That dragon sometimes goes out to eat a herd of cattle or three or to burninate the country-side. The wolves you mentioned don't sit in the den waiting for deer to walk up with an "eat me" sign dangling from their necks, they wander about hunting for prey. Do the hobgoblins refuse to patrol their hard won territory? Have the Elves or Dwarves ever wanted to conduct trade with another society?

And yes, like you said, adventuring does have the characters wandering into the territories of all sorts of things.


Oh, and Shidaku, this is not a "bash 4e" thread so please don't let it turn into an edition war. We're discussing randomness and in some cases to make a point using examples from various editions. Nobody here is bashing 4th.
 
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S

Sunseeker

Guest
I disagree. Do you travel to and from work? Do you go to the grocery store or the dentist/doctor? Do you visit friends to game? Have you ever left your town, county, or state to handle some important task or attend a convention? Ever need to go find a bathroom? These are all examples of wandering which is exactly what random encounters represent.
These are highly predictable environments. The odds that the bank is going to be robbed, that your dentist is going to turn out to be a sadist who gets high on laughing gas(+1 props if you get the reference), that the toilet in the bathroom you enter will explode in a fountain of feces are quite low. Even though the odds of those things are low, they're within the realm of possibility. In the same way that wandering through a forest means you will encounter typical forest inhabitants, though most will shy away from you.

Even so, you are still wandering into the territory of the banker, the dentist, or the dreaded toilet. There are some fairly reasonable expectations you can extrapolate from this. The bank will have money, tellers, and probably loan offiers. The Dentist will have a waiting room, dental equipment, and dental assistants. The bathroom will smell bad, be dirty, and often have un-flushed toilets.

Though there is a level of unpredictability to these things, these are all still reasonable expectations based on past experiences(which assuming the forest isn't super-special/magical/unique, your party has likely been in a forest before.

Are there more extreme things that could happen? Sure, there could be someone giving birth in the bathroom, there could be someone robbing the bank, your dentist could be a sadist. Even so, these are not entirely unexpected things. Noone goes into the bank and ends up buying a rabbit, noone goes into the bathroom and drives away in a new Prius.

That dragon sometimes goes out to eat a herd of cattle or three or to burninate the country-side. The wolves you mentioned don't sit in the den waiting for deer to walk up with an "eat me" sign dangling from their necks, they wander about hunting for prey. Do the hobgoblins refuse to patrol their hard won territory? Have the Elves or Dwarves ever wanted to conduct trade with another society?
These things are not random. A dragon attack has likely occured before(dragons are long-lived buggers). Elves and hobgoblins do not just appear out of thin air, they have homes, paths, markers that indicate that they live there. These things are not random. While you may randomly generate them ahead of time, once you do something like putting hobgoblins in a forest, it's basically mandatory that there are signs of them living there, that nearby towns have heard of/been raided by them.

And yes, like you said, adventuring does have the characters wandering into the territories of all sorts of things.
Exactly. If you wander anywhere, you will likely get a good idea of what is in that area based on local information, environment, and natural markings.

The world is sadly very much not random, and while random generation can be fun, it can also be incredibly annoying when something that clearly shouldn't live in such conditions jumps out and tries to eat you. Any angry, aggressive animal in a setting where it normally should not be is usually running away from an even more angry aggressive creature. As such, if you do run into a frost wurm in a tropical jungle, you should be less concerned with the wurm, and more concerned with what sent such a creature into a totally contrary habitat.
 

Tortoise

First Post
These are highly predictable environments. The odds that the bank is going to be robbed, that your dentist is going to turn out to be a sadist who gets high on laughing gas(+1 props if you get the reference), that the toilet in the bathroom you enter will explode in a fountain of feces are quite low. Even though the odds of those things are low, they're within the realm of possibility. In the same way that wandering through a forest means you will encounter typical forest inhabitants, though most will shy away from you.

Even so, you are still wandering into the territory of the banker, the dentist, or the dreaded toilet. There are some fairly reasonable expectations you can extrapolate from this. The bank will have money, tellers, and probably loan offiers. The Dentist will have a waiting room, dental equipment, and dental assistants. The bathroom will smell bad, be dirty, and often have un-flushed toilets.

Though there is a level of unpredictability to these things, these are all still reasonable expectations based on past experiences(which assuming the forest isn't super-special/magical/unique, your party has likely been in a forest before.

Are there more extreme things that could happen? Sure, there could be someone giving birth in the bathroom, there could be someone robbing the bank, your dentist could be a sadist. Even so, these are not entirely unexpected things. Noone goes into the bank and ends up buying a rabbit, noone goes into the bathroom and drives away in a new Prius.


These things are not random. A dragon attack has likely occured before(dragons are long-lived buggers). Elves and hobgoblins do not just appear out of thin air, they have homes, paths, markers that indicate that they live there. These things are not random. While you may randomly generate them ahead of time, once you do something like putting hobgoblins in a forest, it's basically mandatory that there are signs of them living there, that nearby towns have heard of/been raided by them.


Exactly. If you wander anywhere, you will likely get a good idea of what is in that area based on local information, environment, and natural markings.

The world is sadly very much not random, and while random generation can be fun, it can also be incredibly annoying when something that clearly shouldn't live in such conditions jumps out and tries to eat you. Any angry, aggressive animal in a setting where it normally should not be is usually running away from an even more angry aggressive creature. As such, if you do run into a frost wurm in a tropical jungle, you should be less concerned with the wurm, and more concerned with what sent such a creature into a totally contrary habitat.

Either you didn't understand that in my example question you were being used as the wandering monster or you are deliberately trying to turn my statements around in order to avoid the point. I'm getting fairly sure it is the latter which I find rather trollish of you. Please don't be that way. This was a good, thoughtful thread up to that point.

If you run into a frost wurm ina tropical jungle it is either a specifically placed encounter with an explanation or your DM is clueless about making a DM decision when using random encounter tables.

And regarding Steve Martin, should I bump into him while he's out wandering, I'll let him know you need a root canal.
 
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FireLance

Legend
Great question. Players are free to make their own decisions. This isn't like a game of Candyland where the die roll determines how many spaces along a track they move. Sure a randomly rolled encounter might result in them changing immediate plans, but that decision is entirely theirs to make.
It's not simply a question of random encounters, though. Take combat, for example. What should be the proper balance between player choices and randomness in determining the outcome of a combat? I'm sure that preferences would run the gamut between the completely random coin toss (or die roll, if you don't want an exactly 50-50 chance of winning or losing) and the almost completely choice-driven chess game. I'm more inclined toward the chess game end of the spectrum myself (because I believe that good player choices should almost certainly guarantee success. Almost ;)), but I can see how more randomness might appeal to others.
 

JonWake

First Post
It's not simply a question of random encounters, though. Take combat, for example. What should be the proper balance between player choices and randomness in determining the outcome of a combat? I'm sure that preferences would run the gamut between the completely random coin toss (or die roll, if you don't want an exactly 50-50 chance of winning or losing) and the almost completely choice-driven chess game. I'm more inclined toward the chess game end of the spectrum myself (because I believe that good player choices should almost certainly guarantee success. Almost ;)), but I can see how more randomness might appeal to others.

That's a fair point, and one that is the source of many games try to answer. RPG's are a unique beast because of the influence of the fiction on the mechanics. In a board or dice game, and fictional element comes after the fact. You may imagine the lives of your Warhammer figures, but that is in reference to a war game. In an RPG, the fictional back and forth between the players is the primary driver, and the mechanics exist to back that up and facilitate it. This is enormously important to realize because is changes how mechanics are used or even conceived of. Flipping a coin might be a perfectly acceptable mechanic for a Forgie game about split-second choices.

I'll admit that my original post was about randomness in the fictional aspect of the mechanics primarily. But that's not exclusively it. For example, 4e gives players a significant hit point total to act as a buffer against the wide range of a d20. Lesser hit points create more randomness in the fights, as does greater damage and lower to hit thresholds. I, personally, like this, as that it reinforces a style of play I enjoy.
 

Essenti

Explorer
Either you didn't understand that in my example question you were being used as the wandering monster or you are deliberately trying to turn my statements around in order to avoid the point. I'm getting fairly sure it is the latter which I find rather trollish of you. Please don't be that way. This was a good, thoughtful thread up to that point.

If you run into a frost wurm ina tropical jungle it is either a specifically placed encounter with an explanation or your DM is clueless about making a DM decision when using random encounter tables.

And regarding Steve Martin, should I bump into him while he's out wandering, I'll let him know you need a root canal.

Let's not pull out the troll card just yet. I feel fairly confident he was not merely trolling, he was making valid points even if they weren't specifically congruent with the perspective of "reader as wandering monster" as you meant it in your previous post. It's often best to assume that someone has simply misunderstood rather than writing them off as blatantly antagonistic. We're on the internetz, and nobody knows what anyone else is really talking about :p we just keep posting as if we do.

I feel it worth mentioning that if a table is involved, then it's only psuedo-random at best. At any rate, I do make some use of random encounter tables when I feel it is appropriate. I might introduce a bizarre encounter because of the challenge it offers me as a DM and to the players. Creating a reason for the encounter on the fly can be a ton of fun all by itself, but the potential new possibilities it can open up are usually worth it (unless I really muck it up). Generally though, I try to keep the encounters consistent with the current environment because over-use of out-of-place encounters can easily weaken the story and leaves a bad gamey aftertaste. If you rely too heavily on encounter tables you are creating a whole other level of predictability.

:)
 

JonWake

First Post
And while we're talking about random events, yes, the nice safe world of middle class Western society isn't very random. Walk around the French Quarter of New Orleans at 2 o'clock in the morning during Katrina then. Or trek through Sierra Leone. Or crawl through Moscow's hundreds of miles of underground tunnels. Or travel from Langue d'oc to Jerusalem in 1234.

You'll find life a whole lot more unpredictable. And that's what a random encounter table does: it simulates the unpredictable nature of life in dangerous times.

And a good random encounter generator will be based on things like population density, prey distribution, HD distribution and environment.

But you know that already.
 

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