Realism vs. Believability and the Design of HPs, Powers and Other Things

BryonD

Hero
I discussed the unbelievability of HP going all the way back to the original edition of the game in my first post. I've never liked the abstraction or multiplicative scaling of HP, ever, in any edition. The idea of the frail 1st level wizard that can be slain by a house cat and the 20th level fighter that can survive being submerged in lava has always bothered me, not only because its unbelievable but also because I think it's bad game design, as I pointed out with the acid flask example. 4e may have embraced the mentality that "HP are more than just wounds" to a degree never seen before, but it's one that has been a part of the game from the very beginning, and one I've never, ever liked.

With the new edition of the game, I hope they take a different approach. I'm not saying that they should get rid of HP. But I do want them to drastically cut back on how much HP and damage scale by level. If they do that, then things like acid flasks will remain somewhat effective weapons throughout the game, and HP will be much more believable as a portrayal of one's ability to endure injuries, so that we don't need to resort to using silly excuses to rationalize them.
Fair enough. But that is not what you said in the post I replied to and I still stand by my assessment that your claim there was simply wrong.

As to this point, it may be completely valid. But it also seems pointless to discuss abandoning one the few key elements that crosses every editions when the goal is to recreate the experience of any and every prior edition.

So if you really dislike HP, I'd politely suggest that other games may be better for you. And I really mean that with ZERO snark. I went through a period when I was completely dissatisfied with D&D and the HP issue you describe was part of it. I went to other systems. My personal taste has changed over time. But I fully respect what you are saying. But D&D won't scratch that itch. You either need to get over it because the rest of D&D is cool enough for you to accept HP, or you need to move on.
 

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BryonD

Hero
So, fast forward to 4e. What changed for me?

1. Hit point loss can be entirely non-physical. Magic can frighten a man to death, depress him to death or insult him to death. Fine. I can deal with that. It's magic. If a magic ray of green light can kill a man even though he is completely fine physically, I can accept that magically-induced fear, depression and anger can also kill.
I'd challenge you here.
Simply because I don't see any barrier to this is pre-4E D&D.
If you want to say that 4E proactively embraces this idea much more and that you like that, then cool. No argument. But it can (and infrequently does) happen in my games and has for years.

2. Hit points can be restored more easily through non-magical means. Not an issue for me since I've never gotten into the habit of describing gory wounds. I just pile on the nicks, scratches and bruises.

3. A character can drop below 0 hp, be in danger of death, and recover back to full hit points within 5 minutes by non-magical means. This part is more tricky, but fortunately, I've never gotten into the habit of describing dropping below 0 hp as anything that could cause permanent impairment. What I have to be careful about now (when there is no magic healer in the party) is to ensure I don't describe dropping below 0 hp as anything that could cause temporary impairment, either - no broken bones, for example. These days, on the occasions when it happens, my preference is for profuse bleeding. It's possible that a character could die from it, but it's also plausible (at least to me) that once the wound is bandaged up and the blood loss is stemmed, a character could ignore the pain and press on.
Thumbs up.

Not my taste, but if you were never using any wounds then the removal of wounds is a non-issue.
 

Hussar

Legend
Thats the point. You can't know how injured a PC is before you know how will he be healed.

Following example:
A Orc critically hits a PC with a greataxe and the PC goes down and has to start doing death saves.

Is this a serious, life threatening physical wound or not?

Now, describe this as a life threatening physical wound, that can be 100% recovered from in 5 days.

Since we're talking about consistency and all that.

But, to answer your question, it's a serious wound. Or, rather, it certainly look serious. But, if the PC gets up the next round, it's just a head wound with lots of blood - they look really bad but they're really not. Or maybe the hobbit was saved by his Mithril shirt and just looked dead. OTOH, if he actually dies, then, yup, it was a lethal wound.

If it works for the Professor, it works for me.
 

Hussar

Legend
No this is flat out wrong and if you would pay attention to comments I've made over and over you would know that.

If they make a game that a lot of people like and I happen NOT to be one of them, then that will be quality.


Again, it is YOU talking about *your* individual taste.
If you truly mean what you say then you should instantly concede that they should accept that you taste is valid but not nearly as marketable as other options available.

The simple truth of person A's opinion being worth the same as person's B's opinion is little more than a worthless red herring when the question at hand is how does the dollar generating value of an opinion held by a lot of people compare to the dollar generating value of a few people.

Why is my taste not nearly as marketable? Or is this your mystical chicken entrails knowledge coming to the fore yet again to inform you of the exact state of the industry which just happens to line up with your personal tastes?

Hey, here's a question, how much money is WOTC making right now? Gross from D&D. Now, how much money is Paizo making? Gross is fine.

What, you don't know that? But, you're claiming that you know for a fact that my tastes are less marketable than yours. How can you claim that when you don't have any basic facts?

Oh, right, back to chicken entrails. :confused::yawn:
 

BryonD

Hero
Why is my taste not nearly as marketable? Or is this your mystical chicken entrails knowledge coming to the fore yet again to inform you of the exact state of the industry which just happens to line up with your personal tastes?

Hey, here's a question, how much money is WOTC making right now? Gross from D&D. Now, how much money is Paizo making? Gross is fine.

What, you don't know that? But, you're claiming that you know for a fact that my tastes are less marketable than yours. How can you claim that when you don't have any basic facts?

Oh, right, back to chicken entrails. :confused::yawn:
Yeah, because your unending red herring questions trying to replace big picture issues with 5th decimal place issues establishes a reasonable assessment.

You can tell me up is down and I can never make you say otherwise. But it doesn't change that up is up and down is down.
 

fenriswolf456

First Post
Even healing surges may have been much better accepted had they been presented differently. The very name "healing surge" admits that hit points are all about injury, and healing surges heal them back. You can't have healing absent injury, can you?

It's a term that they then define. Certainly there's connatations to the word, but I would think everyone could accept how the word/concept is being used in the context of the game. I don't play Blackjack and expect the dealer to physically punch me when I say "hit me", because I understand that in the context of the game, the term means to deal me another card, not assualt me.

We speak of all kinds of healing, not just physical. There's psychological healing, emotional healing, even spiritual healing. We don't all immediately balk at these alternate forms of healing in general, so why is it some do when it comes to a game?

Would older edition players really be satisfied if in 4E they called hit points something like 'encounter survival points' and healing as 'restoration' and damage as 'encounter shorterning points' or what-have-you? Are people really that ingrained into the words that they can't extrapolate that something like a hit doesn't necessarily mean the opponent insta-dies? You can 'hit' a dart board for 1 point, or hit the bullseye. Both are still hits.


Now you are right that D&D doesn't model the effect of wounds well (aside from just having lower HP) but it does share the consistency of physicial damage you see in a lot of these movies. Somone doesn't get cut across the chest and then have no cut inthe next scene (and if that does happen people point and laugh because it is a consistency error---usually a bad edit). If someone cuts me with a sword I take ten points of damage, i find it hard to believe that that damage can be healed becauee I dug deep or my warlord shouted in my ear. If it was temporary HP at least the digging deep might make sense ( because digging deep doesn't restore you it just allows you to temporarily ignore the effects of being hurt).

Yes, and often by the next scene, the cut aross the chest is all but ignored. The action hero certainly didn't have a cleric with them or drink a potion, so why is the wound suddenly a non-issue? Because the hero has recovered enough from the wound to make it so (i.e., mundane healing).

Even if you take HP to be all, or virutally all, physical damage capacity, there had to be a part in you that was changing how that damage was implemented. If HP is all meat, then we can form a basis of just how damaging a weapon is against a character by comparing a hit to their start HP. A long sword averages 5 damage, you have 8 HP, so you take a heavy blow to the side nearly crippling you.

But as soon as we start levelling up the character, why doesn't the near-crippling sword hit at first level not do the same relative amount of damage at level 10 or 20? Most usually say that the character is more experienced, able to avoid the blow better now. But now we've suddenly introduced intangibles to the concept of HP.

The only way you could play HP as purely physical is to never change them from 1st level (or increment in extremely small amounts). Either that, or your heroes bulk up immensely every level.

I'm a fan of healing surges, I think they help emulate the dynamic heroic charactes we often see in movies, able to take a hefty beating but still win through, and then pull themselves together for the next challenge. I do agree that the rest periods were poorly implemented, at least extended rests. It does break things a little when characters can bounce back and forth between being okay to nearly dead to okay to nearly dead, then sleep a night and be 100% fine. I think I would have preferred a slower surge recovery rate, though I also acknowledge that this could end up slowing down the pace of the game.
 

wrightdjohn

Explorer
Hit points in prior editions have always been defined as a mixture of physical wounds, and other stuff (vitality, fatigue, morale, whatever). It was definitely a mixture though and not purely non-physical. The hero was assumed to be able to fight through his wounds because he was a hero. That was the 1e,2e,3e D&D definition. This definition precludes saying only the last hit point is physical too.

The problem with 4e martial healing is it can't explain the physical part. It works 100% of the time and we know that some percentage of damage greater than 0% is physical. That part cannot be explained by martial healing.

Second. I think morale is a crazy measure. So when the dragon hits you with a fear effect and you fail your save and are running for your life how many hit points of damage did you take. Unless the dragon breaths or attacks in some other way you took no damage. The game is rife with examples of physical attacks being the only way to reduce these supposedly morale based hit points. Also when you go down, you are unconscious. Not in shock, not dazed or stunned or anything else. You are out. A martial healer healing you from this state is completely unbelievable.

Let's face it. All the editions of D&D prior to 4e really did treat it like physical damage in every single way except in the one paragraph describing them. All other rules etc.. treated them as physical. It is why people rejected 4e in this area. 4e started treating hit points like they were almost entirely non-physical.

The solution:
We all want a game we can play. If I can't rid the game of healing surges and martial dailies with very minimal effort I won't bother. How that is accomplished can be debated. I believe though a lot more people want traditional hit points than 4e's version of them. I feel the 3e/Pathfinder group and the 1e/2e group in combination are bigger than the 4e group.

So let's just advocate for a system that can cleanly play both ways if surges/martial dailes really are necessary for the 4e crowd. (Personally I think even half those people would gladly toss them.)
 

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
I'm a fan of healing surges, I think they help emulate the dynamic heroic charactes we often see in movies, able to take a hefty beating but still win through, and then pull themselves together for the next challenge. I do agree that the rest periods were poorly implemented, at least extended rests. It does break things a little when characters can bounce back and forth between being okay to nearly dead to okay to nearly dead, then sleep a night and be 100% fine. I think I would have preferred a slower surge recovery rate, though I also acknowledge that this could end up slowing down the pace of the game.

Slowing down the pace of the game, at least narratively, isn't necessarily a bad thing. But that's not my main point of posting here.

You've just written, in part, why I like the Second Wind mechanic as implemented by Star Wars Saga Edition. It's dramatic and, because it's more limited than healing surges, it remains dramatic. If i can surge every fight, the drama of doing so is leeched away.
 

FireLance

Legend
Hit points in prior editions have always been defined as a mixture of physical wounds, and other stuff (vitality, fatigue, morale, whatever). It was definitely a mixture though and not purely non-physical. The hero was assumed to be able to fight through his wounds because he was a hero. That was the 1e,2e,3e D&D definition.
This is also the 4e definition (and maybe even more so, for purely non-magical healing). :p

The problem with 4e martial healing is it can't explain the physical part. It works 100% of the time and we know that some percentage fof damage greater than 0% is physical. That part cannot be explained by martial healing.
So cap it so that non-magical healing cannot restore you to above 75% of your full maximum hit points. That's a middle road that allows non-magical healing to get you out of danger, but not as much as magical healing.

Second. I think morale is a crazy measure. So when the dragon hits you with a fear effect and you fail your save and are running for your life how many hit points of damage did you take. Unless the dragon breaths or attacks in some other way you took no damage. The game is rife with examples of physical attacks being the only way to reduce these supposedly morale based hit points.
Physical attacks and magic. Plus, equating intangible hit points only with morale is an over-simplification. They can be anything that allows you to turn a lethal wound into a non-lethal, non-hindering one.

Also when you go down, you are unconscious. Not in shock, not dazed or stunned or anything else. You are out. A martial healer healing you from this state is completely unbelievable.
Really? I see this as a martial healer helping you to fight through your wounds because you are a hero.

Let's face it. All the editions of D&D prior to 4e really did treat it like physical damage in every single way except in the one paragraph describing them.
And the fact that a high-level fighter who has lost 99 hp still makes attack rolls as if he was unwounded. Whatever his "physical" wounds are, they are obviously not hindering him in any way.
 

Hit points in prior editions have always been defined as a mixture of physical wounds, and other stuff (vitality, fatigue, morale, whatever). It was definitely a mixture though and not purely non-physical. The hero was assumed to be able to fight through his wounds because he was a hero. That was the 1e,2e,3e D&D definition. This definition precludes saying only the last hit point is physical too.

The problem with 4e martial healing is it can't explain the physical part. It works 100% of the time and we know that some percentage of damage greater than 0% is physical. That part cannot be explained by martial

This
 

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