Realism vs. Believability and the Design of HPs, Powers and Other Things

[Hussar]

I didn't answer because that isnt for me to decide. We each get to say what we want and the designers decide what to do. I doubt burrowing down will help we have seriously different preferences.surges are something i dont like and dont want in core 5e. You like them. My solution would be to include surges as an option that can be added in but not default. That way you can play the style D&D you want and so can i.

Would you accept surges as the default with traditional healing as a module?

See, as to the whole taste discussion, this is where I really don't understand. If your issue is purely an aesthetic one, just change the numbers. You have no problem with 1 week plus for natural healing. Ok, Extended Rest now returns 10% of your HP per extended rest. Done.

If martial healers tip you over, why not just not use them? There is exactly one martial healer in 4e out of what, 36 classes in the game? There's about 8 or 9 (I actually don't know the exact number) leader role classes in the game, all of which have non-mundane healing. Since you have no problems with clerics healing wounds, that would seem to resolve your issues.

Why are these fixes not acceptable?

 

[BryonD]

On the other hand if I need to be laid up for a week to recover because I've just been hit hard by an axe, the fact that I am wandering around with absolutely no penalty doesn't pass my believability test.

Who said anything about being "laid up"?
You need a week before the effects of the prior damage are completely gone.

You continue to fight 3 seconds after the axe strike.
You can fight 5 minutes after the axe strike.
You can fight that night.
You can fight the next day and the day after.

During all that fighting it is possible that your total HP pool has never fully recovered from receiving that axe strike. Eventually it will. But it takes time. During that time, you can fight.

"Laid up" is either a serious misunderstanding or a simple red herring.

 

[BryonD]

Why are these fixes not acceptable?

Those fixes would be completely acceptable to me.
But it is pretty unlikely that a game built with that default perspective is going to be SUPERIOR to what I have already.
I'm open to waiting and seeing. But it would be a very tall order.

 

[BryonD]

Would you accept surges as the default with traditional healing as a module?

I do have to ask, if it is down to petty disputes over which side is in the "options" column and which is default, then why should something new to 4E trump every other edition prior to it if 5E is supposed to appeal to everyone?

 

[Falling Icicle]

So you feel that 4e mundane healing is unrealistic because your interpretation of hit points differs from the definition of hit points of every edition so far?

Good luck with that.

The point I was trying to make in regards to 4e is that alot of its innovations (many of which were very good, btw) might have been better accepted by alot of people had they just been presented differently. For example, instead of the warlord healing people by shouting words of encouragement, he could have been portrayed as a combat medic and master of first aid. His powers that grant people heroic surges of inspiration could have granted temporary hit points instead, which to alot of people would have made much more sense, while relying on his medic skill for out-of-combat recovery.

Even healing surges may have been much better accepted had they been presented differently. The very name "healing surge" admits that hit points are all about injury, and healing surges heal them back. You can't have healing absent injury, can you?

 

[Hussar]

I do have to ask, if it is down to petty disputes over which side is in the "options" column and which is default, then why should something new to 4E trump every other edition prior to it if 5E is supposed to appeal to everyone?

No particular reason. I'm just curious if it's the existence of the rules at all that's the sticking point. After all, 4e's interpretation of HP is provably closer to the original interpretation of HP than any other editions, so, why should faulty interpretations carry the day?

Me, I'd be happiest of both are presented as equal options with no default, that way groups can choose without bias.

 

[Falling Icicle]

Your biases show. I do not believe in any sort of faith healing in life, so I do not think it is in any way believable in a fantasy game. That is why it is called fantasy. I always groan when I see the pulp heroes in action movies or on television shows get up and keep fighting, and even get stronger, after being beaten to a pulp. But it is a common and expected trope in many stories, therefore it is just as much a legitimate part of unbelievable fantasy as completely unbelievable faith healing and fireballs.

Cleric healing is more believable because it's magic. Magic, by its very definition, is a supernatural power which breaks the laws of our reality. Can you honestly look me straight in the face and say that there's no difference in believability between a magical spell that makes someone's injuries disappear vs. a person just speaking mundane words of encouragement to accomplish the same effect?

As for the heroes that get back up and keep fighting, their injuries don't just disappear. They may have a surge of adrenaline that let's them ignore the pain for a while, or they press on just a bit longer through strength of will and determination, but they usually also fall right back down as soon as the BBEG is dead. Some of them even die after their heroic last stand. This kind of thing is much better represented in the game by temporary hit points, not by instant healing.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Would you accept surges as the default with traditional healing as a module?

See, as to the whole taste discussion, this is where I really don't understand. If your issue is purely an aesthetic one, just change the numbers. You have no problem with 1 week plus for natural healing. Ok, Extended Rest now returns 10% of your HP per extended rest. Done.

If martial healers tip you over, why not just not use them? There is exactly one martial healer in 4e out of what, 36 classes in the game? There's about 8 or 9 (I actually don't know the exact number) leader role classes in the game, all of which have non-mundane healing. Since you have no problems with clerics healing wounds, that would seem to resolve your issues.

Why are these fixes not acceptable?

Or we could just use the old HP system which I had no problem with. We have covered this ground before and I and other posters have answered those questions before (and you were the one asknig them).

 

[Hussar]

Or we could just use the old HP system which I had no problem with. We have covered this ground before and I and other posters have answered those questions before (and you were the one asknig them).

So, in other words, anyone who does not share your aesthetic preferences can take a hike and just suck it up, so long as your tastes are catered to.

Ahh, I see now. You're not interested in D&D, you want BRG D&D, the one true game.

 

[Falling Icicle]

Someone really needs to write the definitive guide to hit points in D&D, so we can just link to it every time these sorts of discussions arise. As Hussar says, the same points keep being made over and over. That said, Ratskinner's post upthread is one of the most elegant, succinct and yet thorough I've seen on the subject.

If they do what I hope they're going to do, and keep 4e's higher starting HP while drastically reducing the rate at which HP are gained as part of their "flatter math" goal, then we don't really need to resort to explaining HP as some nonsensical mixture of physical well being, endurance, luck, and morale. If a character will never have more than a few dozen HP, they won't be able to survive being hacked by a greataxe dozens of time or submerged in acid repeatedly, so there wouldn't be anywhere near as much unbelievability there that needs to be explained away.