Realism vs. Believability and the Design of HPs, Powers and Other Things

Hussar said:

What have you done to mitigate the lethality of the 3e system?

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What you see as a bug here, I think of as a feature. Each successive edition has stepped further away from lethality, and that's boring to me.

Hussar said:

Umm, if this accurately describes his experience, then how would he be wrong?

Let me ask this then. If you take a 3e creature of CR=to PC level, that creature, by and large, can kill a PC in one round. Not likely, but possible. Certainly in 2 rounds, that creature can.

So, if you do not spend any healing in combat, how do you avoid frequent PC death? What have you done to mitigate the lethality of the 3e system?

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Who says you have to run "balanced by the book" encounters. I don't in 4e - and the balance there is far better than in 3e.

KaiiLurker said:

My major problem with surges is they make dedicated healers moot, actually let me rephrase that: it makes imposible to create dedicated healers that focus on support. I know Healing surges are seen as a good thing by groups that don't want to rely on a healer. But they are very unpalatable to some of us and in my particular case they don't mesh with my playstyle.

You don't need to attack every round to enjoy a combat!, support roles can be fun to play and rewarding too!.

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You've never seen a Lazy Warlord (who is designed to never personally make an attack roll) in play. Or even a defence-buffing cleric. Support roles are definitely alive in 4e.

KaiiLurker said:

Yes but it made almost impossible to heal withoout doing anything else at the same time, you are no longer a healer, but rather a buffer-debuffer-damager that sometimes can allow other people to heal if they have a surge to burn and are willing to use it (being a pacifist healer that doesn't actively harm living things, except for undead, has never been easy, but the system has only made it harder to pull).

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It's in Divine Power.

Out of combat isn't any better, you are moot, unless it happens to be the time of the day everybody has ran out of surges and then, and only then, you can heal one of your allies and only one of them.

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Or you just want to preserve surges and use your words as they are more efficient. Or you use rituals and other magic to help. Or you have something you can do that isn't healing.

And that is suppossing the group didn't decide to take a extended rest instead in which case you are also moot.

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Extended rests at will are an issue.

Healers went form being a necesity in previous editions to be a convenience, at times.

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Ding, dong, the witch is dead! No class should be a necessity. That doesn't mean that healers aren't very useful in 4e.

Neonchameleon said:

Ding, dong, the witch is dead! No class should be a necessity. That doesn't mean that healers aren't very useful in 4e.

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I think many agree with you, but many are also fine with the idea that if you want to heal you need a cleric, if you want to detect traps you need a rogue. For my tastes I like needing the magical healer to recover large amounts of HP. And I like how differently the game plays when the cleric falls or you run a party without one.

Mercutio01 said:

What you see as a bug here, I think of as a feature. Each successive edition has stepped further away from lethality, and that's boring to me.

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Well, that's fair.

If you don't have a problem with smoking a PC every four to six encounters, then no worries.

Now, if I don't want to have that high of a lethality rate, what can I do to mitigate to lethality of the system if clerics are not healing in combat?

Hussar said:

Well, that's fair.

If you don't have a problem with smoking a PC every four to six encounters, then no worries.

Now, if I don't want to have that high of a lethality rate, what can I do to mitigate to lethality of the system if clerics are not healing in combat?

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Well, I didn't say "no healing in combat," so that is still a viable option. And there are multiple other solutions. I've already discussed a potential optional rule system for surges. There is also the extended use of things like temporary HP.

In fact, what I'd really like to see are options for varying levels of lethality presented in the base book.

I don't want to alienate 4E players anymore than I want older system aficionados alienated. I think the best way to do that is present a simplified core system with optional add-ons to cater to different playstyles and preferences.

Hussar said:

Now, if I don't want to have that high of a lethality rate, what can I do to mitigate to lethality of the system if clerics are not healing in combat?

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i think this very much comes down to campaign style and expectations. If fleeing combat is a real option, then it can be easy to navigate your way around deadly encounters in a lethal game. The number lf combats is also important. In a high intrigue campaign, these things are not much of an issue for example. Also what the kinds of encounters you have are pretty critical here. If the GM is building encounters to the party (and this isn't an assumption in every campaign style) it should be pretty easy to keep things from getting out of hand.

I run a lot of modern games using lethal systems, and needless to say there is no in game healing. Typically what ends up happening is lots of characters get dropped but not as many as you think die (this of course is very system dependant). There is also a tendancy in such games for the PCs to be much more cautious about resorting to combat in every case.

Mercutio01 said:

Well, I didn't say "no healing in combat," so that is still a viable option. And there are multiple other solutions. I've already discussed a potential optional rule system for surges. There is also the extended use of things like temporary HP.

In fact, what I'd really like to see are options for varying levels of lethality presented in the base book.

/snip

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Now that I totally agree with. That is definitely a slider dial I'd love to see a few pages spent on.

KaiiLurker said:

Perhaps you are right, [off-topic can you tell me what phb 1 cleric powers were "just heal" not "attack-debuff-do something and maybe heal"?. And what other cleric powers didn't involve an attack roll or actively damage?]

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I'm not sure how strict the Pacifist Cleric is ... though I think RAW they can attack unbloodied creatures. But it sounds more like you want a true pacifist and not attack and do damage at all.

Lvl 1 -Cause Fear, while it does make an attack, it does no damage, and I would consider usuable by a true pacifist.
Beacon of Hope, another 'attack' that just weakens foes and heals allies
Guardian of Faith
Lvl 2 - Bless, Cure Light Wounds, Divine Aid, Sanctuary, Shield of Faith
Lvl 3 - Command
Lvl 5 - Consecrated Ground, Weapon of the Gods if cast on someone elses weapon
Lvl 6 - Bastion of Health, Cure Serious Wounds, Divine Vigour, Holy Lantern
Lvl 9 - Astral Defenders, Blade Barrier if used as just a wall between you and enemies
Lvl 10 - Astral Refuge, Knights of Unyielding Valour, Mass Cure Light Wounds, Shielding Ward

Admittedly it does get tougher to find non-damaging powers once in the paragon tier. I don't have access to Divine Power, so can't see if there are more options available. But certainly for Heroic Tier, it can be done fairly well just from the basic core PH.

KaiiLurker said:

Still it doesn't negate the fact that you no longer can just heal, it is do something and also heal, and having an ally severely hurt isn't a primary concern and a drama on itself anymore, If you don't reach your hurt ally on time it is only a minor inconvenience, he just second winds and is back on his feet without your help, if he ever waits that long and doesn't do it the instant he drops to negatives, taking away what used to be the cool moments for my character. Perhaps on the grand scheeme of the things it is the same, the results are "equal" or even "better", but the way those results are achieved doesn't feel the same.

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No, true, it would be hard to have a character who just sits there and heals every turn. Again, I don't know the Pacifist Cleric option offhand, so not sure if this sort of character is truly covered or not. I've never really been a fan of the concept, though I can see it working for certain campaign settings.

But I would also venture that this is a very narrow character concept with limited appeal. I'm all for support classes, but believe they should do more than just heal every turn. They should be buffing their allies, making it difficult for enemies to attack effectively by direct debuffs, protection magicks or even putting up obstacles to impede enemies.

And as we've said, using raw surges (just getting back your surge value), while certainly useful and potentially life-saving, is a very ineffecient use of surges, especially if you've got a healer who specialized in healing. And you can't spend surges on your own (i.e., use Second Wind, which is a once per encounter ability and the only way to use surges without a specific power/ability) if you drop to negatives, so they're going to desperately need that cleric to heal them, either by spell or using the heal skill. I suppose it depends on the group, but ours very rarely uses Second Wind unless times are desperate, with either the healer out of healing, or in getting that +2 to defenses so that you can maybe avoid the next hit, or in my case where my character's SW gives out temp HPs to everyone (so far only used a couple of times when things were looking pretty grim).

Second Wind on it's own isn't going to take much away from a devoted healer. If a character only needs a Second Wind to get through an encounter, it's not an encounter that would have had that "big heal that saves the party" moment in it in the first place. Healing someone who's in single digits, or on the floor dying, are your big moments, and those heals are going to be amazingly good and likely game-changers.

Hussar said:

Umm, if this accurately describes his experience, then how would he be wrong?

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As I clearly explained, it being true to him personalyl does not remotely make it a truism that defacto happens whenever the game is played.

He portrayed it as such.

That is wrong.

Let me ask this then. If you take a 3e creature of CR=to PC level, that creature, by and large, can kill a PC in one round. Not likely, but possible. Certainly in 2 rounds, that creature can.

So, if you do not spend any healing in combat, how do you avoid frequent PC death? What have you done to mitigate the lethality of the 3e system?

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You are moving the goal posts around here.
He claimed nearly constant healing (every other round, etc...)

I won't claim that there is NO healing during combat. But I would say that No healing during combat is a lot closer to the reality of my play experience than every other round.

Honestly the answer to your question is: It varies wildly.
Sometimes the character dies.
Sometimes your claim of expected death in two rounds just isn't true.
Sometimes the party simply makes it a priority to move the damage away from the hurt guy or to move the hurt guy away from the damage.
Sometimes there is some select emergency healing.
I can't even claim that this is close to a complete answer.