Realism vs. Believability and the Design of HPs, Powers and Other Things

[MoonSong]

No, see, that's specifically what I asked you not to do. You're trying to appease 2E and 4E gamers by telling 2E gamers to get with the program and just like surge mechanics already. That's not the right answer.

Still, I'll answer it anyway. I don't like the surge mechanic. I don't like the idea that my magical healing is limited by my own personal ability to be magically healed. If a cleric heals me, why should one of my resources be used up? I don't like it mechanically.

I don't like it from a fluff standpoint. I don't think there should be some sort of inherent limitation in the number of times I can be magically healed in one day that is tied to me personally.

I happen to like the 2E healing mechanics pretty much as written. I even like the 3E one rules (minus the bag of holding full of healsticks, which is an abuse of the system, imho) as written.

In summary, I don't like the fluff, but I could get over that if I cared for the mechanics, which I don't. I also don't like the inflated HP counts of 4E (and to a large extent 3E/PF) that necessitate larger attack/damage values and continue in a cycle.

Now, as to the point of the HP, I did address that specifically. You lower the base HP to pre-4E levels (probably closer to 2E levels would be nice), and those the surge values would also drop. The corresponding decreases would also dovetail nicely with the stated and implied goals of the lowered attack and damage value curves that the designers have discussed.

My major problem with surges is they make dedicated healers moot, actually let me rephrase that: it makes imposible to create dedicated healers that focus on support. I know Healing surges are seen as a good thing by groups that don't want to rely on a healer. But they are very unpalatable to some of us and in my particular case they don't mesh with my playstyle.

You don't need to attack every round to enjoy a combat!, support roles can be fun to play and rewarding too!.

 

[Hussar]

So, Merc, your issue is with the total number of surges, not specifically with the surges themselves? After all, why should magical healing use your resources. Ok, is that the only issue here?

I'd point out that 4e clerics do get non-surge healing and there are a number of temporary HP mechanics as well. If we got rid of surge healing, would that not satisfy your issues?

The problem with your fix though, is that 4e HP are not actually inflated. They are only inflated at low levels. A 10th level 2e fighter can easily have 100 HP, although not as easily as the 3e fighter, that's true. A 10th level 2e fighter with an 18 Con is averaging 9.5 HP/level, which gives him 95 HP on average. Which is still higher than the 4e character. The 4e character catches up again at about 14th or 15th level, since the 2e fighter is only gaining 3 hp/level instead of 6, whereas the 4e character will never catch the 3e character at all.

So, while your scaling works at low levels, sure, it doesn't work as soon as we get into double digit territory. You want to give the surge character even less hp in your solution, which means that it takes him even longer to catch up with the 2e character.

Even if we strip out the Con bonus, the math works better. The 4e fighter and the 2e fighter are actually pretty close. But, let's be honest here, it's pretty unlikely that either character will have a 10 Con.

 

[Hussar]

Gonna call this bit out specifically

No, see, that's specifically what I asked you not to do. You're trying to appease 2E and 4E gamers by telling 2E gamers to get with the program and just like surge mechanics already. That's not the right answer.

No, I'm trying to pick the best mechanic that can most easily encompass all playstyles. You're doing the exact same thing you're accusing me of - telling me to just get with the program already.

I honestly don't think that you can simply just add surges back into traditional HP. It breaks down at higher levels. Particularly since if we also want to have 3e style play included, we cannot have 2e style limitations as the core. That screws over the 3e guy AND the 4e guy. It's not like we're going to go back to the idea that you only get X HP/level after name level. That's not going to happen and we both know that.

There's more to it than only fixating on one playstyle. There has to be some flexibility here. "I only want my playstyle supported to the exclusion of all others" is most certainly not the stated goal of 5e.

 

[Mercutio01]

Like I said, I don't like the mechanics. Take that how you will. It's not the number of surges. It's the surge mechanic itself. I drink a potion to heal myself, why does that also burn a surge? I'm already depleting a resource. Or, a warlord uses inspiring word to heal me, why am I burning a surge. He's already depleted his own resource to do it.

And then we get into surges as mechanics for use in things other than healing. I didn't like the idea in 3E of turning Turn Undead attempts into other more powerful uses. I still don't like the idea of using a healing surge to power something that isn't healing.

The cleric's non-surge healing in 4E is fine to me. Temp HP is something I wish got used more in all editions of D&D.

As to playing catch-up/scaling versus other editions, I'm not really all that concerned about that since I'm not going to be literally putting a 2E fighter up against a 5E fighter to see who wins. I'd honestly like to see a flatter HP curve than 2E. The "curve" of 4E is okay, but I'd rather see it start lower and end lower, with a shallower slope. And since Ability scores have been stated as having a slower advancement and attack values doing the same, having HP do that makes sense, too.

You still haven't answered how you would take the 4E HP mechanics and completely strip out the Healing Surges. Again, I think that's largely because being additive is easier to control than trying for subtractive modules. Think of it in terms of cooking. If you put too much salt into whatever you're cooking, you can't really strip it out. But if you start with less salt to begin with, you can add more to suit individual tastes. It's not a perfect analogy, and D&D isn't basic cooking 101, but I think the fundamental argument still holds water.

 

[Mercutio01]

There's more to it than only fixating on one playstyle. There has to be some flexibility here. "I only want my playstyle supported to the exclusion of all others" is most certainly not the stated goal of 5e.

I really hope that's not what you took out of my posts. It's not my intent, and it's not my desire. I do think that starting with the simplest base that caters to the widest audience is the best starting point, which then allows for more complexity to be added on. And I honestly think adding a surge mechanic as a module would be easier to do than trying to find a way to strip it out after an assumption in the core mechanic. If it's as simple as you noted (and I doubt it is that simple) in that you also have to beef up monster damage when you add surges, then it's just that simple. "If you choose to use the optional surge value rules, increase monster damage by X." EDIT: And the reverse couldn't be true as you'd more than likely be looking at reducing damage values into negative numbers or something similar. Plus the fact that adding really is simpler than subtracting. At least it's true based on my observations as a parent.

 

[Hussar]

You still haven't answered how you would take the 4E HP mechanics and completely strip out the Healing Surges. Again, I think that's largely because being additive is easier to control than trying for subtractive modules. Think of it in terms of cooking. If you put too much salt into whatever you're cooking, you can't really strip it out. But if you start with less salt to begin with, you can add more to suit individual tastes. It's not a perfect analogy, and D&D isn't basic cooking 101, but I think the fundamental argument still holds water.

Hold you horses. Gotta head out to work. But, I wanted to drill down to find out what you actually wanted before giving an answer. You do not want surges at all, that's fine, and I wanted to know why, because any mechanic is going to have to actually address what you want, rather than what you don't want.

Like I said, gotta head out to work, but, I'm not dodging this. Just want to give it the proper attention it deserves.

 

[Tony Vargas]

It is pretty well unique.

Positively cliche, really. Watch any action movie or tv show, you'll see characters get knocked down or out or beaten up to the point they seem finished, then they pull themselves together, come back and win through. Second wind models that sort of thing nicely. Prior versions of D&D don't.

The idea that healing comes form a source rather than "poof" is the point.

The point we were arguing was the prevalence of second wind or martial healing vs clerical healing in genre.

I completely dispute your claim about anything even CLOSE to "every other round". And I'd add that making wounds vanish is (again) the opposite of "heroic"

Depends on the edition. In 3e, monsters dished so much damage that if you actually did depend on a melee type duking it out, you'd have to heal him /every/ round. Of course, that's wasteful and silly compared to just acing the monster with an optimized save-or-die spell. In AD&D healing was a scarcer resource, especially at low level, and 1e monsters did a lot less damage - but healing was still a significant drain on clerics' in-combat actions, as well as a near-total drain on the spellcasting potential.

Again, that may be YOUR personal experience. But it was quite "vast" to MANY people.

How much something changes isn't a personal experience. D&D has always used hit points. It still does. It's always depended on in-combat healing to get characters through fights. It still does. It has not 'vastly' changed.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Hussar, i think many of us were perfectly happy with the old HP system. We really don't want a new mechanic that is somewhere between HS and traditional healing. The only positive I saw in 4e was connecting HP total to healing. Other than that I can only see 4e healing being worked on as an optional ad on. Healing surges were just too much of a point of contention to unite the base if they are core. But if they are there as options, then you should be able to play the style of D&D you prefer without having a core system that repels people who don't like 4e.

 

[Bedrockgames]

How much something changes isn't a personal experience. D&D has always used hit points. It still does. It's always depended on in-combat healing to get characters through fights. It still does. It has not 'vastly' changed.

how much of a difference healing surges present to thgame clearly varies from individual to individual. I am with byron, they were a huge mechanical change to the game. You can build all kinds of arguments to try to "prove" they weren't but I have to say I don't find these very convincing any more (mostly they are semantic-like your's here). Healing surges present a vast change because they shift rapid heals from being the sole domain clerics to coming from mundane sources and even themselves. In previous editions I had to wait for a cleric or magic item to heal me. This creates a change in the way the game plays (and if it doesn't then I have to ask you what is so great about 4e healing then becuase it was clearly designed to fix what some people saw as a major problem of play in earlier editions) and in the way people see the events unfold in the game. You may not consider it a vast change but for many it is.

 

[wrightdjohn]

Here is an idea (I actually think it is the 5e idea to be honest but not sure)

1. We return to just hit points. Define a surge value equal to 1/4 your total full hps.
2. Who and how those can be restored is determined by module.

4e module.
Once per day second wind restores a surges worth of hit points.
A healing word or a inspiring word restores a surge.
A potion of healing restores a surge of hps.
You are limited to X surges worth of healing per day.
You recover all hit points between combats. (Mark off surges for recovery)

1e,2e,3e module
No second wind
Only magical healing words restore a surge value. They have a daily limit.
A potion of healing restores a surge of hps.
No limit on surges per day.
You do not heal between battle but require magical aid.
Warlord is banned as a class or redesigned to not heal.
Option #1 - you recover your last surge in a week, your first surge in 1 hour. All in between in a day.
Option #2 - you recover 1hp per day

The key differences is how we recover hit points.