Cleric design goals . Legends and Lore April 23

Dausuul · Apr 24, 2012

Healing sucking chest wounds and raising the dead are pretty darn flashy in my book.

I don't think "subtle/flashy" does a good job of getting at the cleric/wizard distinction. Both classes have subtle spells, from clerical blessings and auguries to wizard mind control and illusion. And both classes have flashy spells, with clerics unleashing blasts of holy light and wizards making your head asplode.

I think the key distinction between divine magic and arcane is that divine magic is "friendly," in more than one sense. It makes clear distinctions between friend and foe, often using alignment as a basis, and it's more focused on helping and protecting its friends than harming its foes, though it can do both.

Arcane magic doesn't care about friend or foe. It's a dangerous, amoral force, and it tends to be rough on living things--one of the signature traits of arcane magic is that it has little or no capacity to heal. It can be used in both offensive and defensive ways, but its defenses all require preparation. A wizard can keep you from getting hit by nasty stuff, but if you've already been hit by nasty stuff, you'll just have to live with it.

ExploderWizard · Apr 24, 2012

AnonGemini said:
2. There is a president for clerics using maces even if the evidence is sparse and unconvincing.

Who is this president and who elected him? :angel:

I'm A Banana · Apr 24, 2012

pauljathome said:
Unfortunately, that also doesn't work for me. I don't want my fighter to be able to throw a fireball, even if he worships Saranrae (martial god with Fire domain in Golarion, the default Pathfinder world).

So your cleric being able to call down fire isn't good enough -- you also need to make sure that no one else can? (which, let me say, is totally fair -- not like fighters in any e have been able to chuck around fire just 'cuz they worship something made of it)

And if Themes and Backgrounds go that far then D&D will really not be a class based system any more. Which is fine with me in one respect (I like non class based systems) but would be a pretty egregious step away from their "its still D&D" theme.

A few extra powers layered on top of what you can already do is pretty much exactly how the 3e cleric's domains worked. Expanding that to the entire party doesn't invalidate the class-based system, it just makes it more flexible and agile.

And, though I'm not sure it needs to be stated, nothing stops you as DM from limiting that agility and ruling that only clerics can take domain themes or whatever.

FireLance · Apr 24, 2012

ExploderWizard said:
Who is this president and who elected him?

The President for Clerics using Maces is not elected. He is appointed by divine authority.

BobTheNob · Apr 24, 2012

Mouseferatu said:
On the other, the more flashy combat spells you give the cleric, the more you blur the difference between the cleric and the wizard. And that very easily--not automatically, but almost--to the CoDzilla issue. If a cleric can be just as good a blaster as a wizard, and can wear armor and has better HP and BAB--then unless a game is remarkably non-combat-centered, the wizard becomes an absolutely inferior option in any/all mechanical and effectiveness measurements.

You might find this is a great part of where they are coming from with clerical magic. CoDzilla was a game destroying beast. I remember playing DDO and their being a guild called "No Battle Clerics allowed!".

At the end of the day, to avoid CoDzilla, the set of clerical magic needs to be wound back from being able to do everything. There has to be some consideration of limitation, and when the cleric takes the Mages schtick (the poor old frail mage who gave up so much just to have the best lineup of spells possible), well, thats probably the first thing I would look at cutting back on.

Leatherhead · Apr 24, 2012

Kamikaze Midget said:
That's all well and good, but it's not very D&D, I think. Divine magic is for healing and buffing and protection and divination, largely speaking, and though there's a few blasting spells in there too, they're not as potent as a wizard flipping around lightning bolts and fireballs.

To be fair, wizards who flip about fireballs aren't very potent wizards, but that's hardly the point. It's about style. Divine magic is quite literally a miracle, and it should be inspiring or awesome to behold. Half the reason clerics are considered boring is because their spells are "subtle" and largely reactive instead of proactive.

And what about Druids and Invokers? Are they not known for being the Wrath of nature/the gods? More that than being supportive in any sense of the word anyway.

As for healbots, major healing should be restricted ritual. Anything more complicated than a minor patch up job to keep people moving, breaks the dramatic flow of combat. And it really throws a wrench into the mechanical balance of combat when you suddenly have or don't have a combat healer.

Crazy Jerome · Apr 24, 2012

Dausuul said:
I don't think "subtle/flashy" does a good job of getting at the cleric/wizard distinction. Both classes have subtle spells, from clerical blessings and auguries to wizard mind control and illusion. And both classes have flashy spells, with clerics unleashing blasts of holy light and wizards making your head asplode.

This. Maybe it's my Fantasy Hero background, where being obvious is a limitation, because it constrains when you can do things, but I'd like to see "flashy" as something restricted to more powerful, direct magic--regardless of origin. So then to the extent that a character is blasting, distintergrating, melting stuff, they are flashy. More wizards might choose to do this, so wizards are generally more flashy. Illusionists are an obvious exception, just as is a cleric that favors a lot of flamestrike type magic.

satori01 · Apr 24, 2012

Leatherhead said:
e. Divine magic is quite literally a miracle, and it should be inspiring or awesome to behold. Half the reason clerics are considered boring is because their spells are "subtle" and largely reactive instead of proactive.

* a quick preface,no offense is intended from real world religious examples that are used*

A devout Catholic, would consider the Eucharist, a miracle and the central miracle of their spiritual lives at that, and yet it is not very Harm, or Flame Strike flashy is it?

A Catholic Priest absolving sins is pretty miraculous, and to believers happens everyday, but would be " boring and reactive" by your standards.

Christians of a more Charasmatic faith persuasion see miracles in the Speaking of Tongues and being able to ignore the venom of snakes in snake handling traditions.

The ancient Greeks had a knowledge of engineering that would have temple doors open automatically once the heat from a fire reached a certain temperature, and yet the height of religious expression would be an Augury read from animal intestines.

Real world examples of Miracles, be it Auguries, Plagues of Locust, ( which of course happen naturally as well), etc Do seem to be on a subtle scale.

I guess Mosses was just not Awesome enough for you. Humanity has given the concept of Miracles quite a bit of attention, and most are subtle, from a certain point of view. I do not care for "Gamist" Miracles myself.

objectsession · Apr 24, 2012

ExploderWizard said:
#4 WOW.

Weapons are used to defeat enemies and armor is used to withstand enemies attacks.

Who knew?

Seriously if this is the intelligence level they are gearing the writing to, it doesn't look like 5E will have much to offer those of us who are beyond the 4th grade.

It actually sounds like they need to dumb down the articles to reach people's reading comprehension levels.

pauljathome · Apr 24, 2012

BobTheNob said:
Thats why I like subtle for clerics, its far better suited to the concept of faith being the strength of the cleric. At the same time, it allows the cleric to be something different from the arcanist and the arcanist to have the more spectacular spell set (cause he is the guy who gave up everything for the better spell list).

While I find your idea cool and interesting in the abstract, unfortunately D&D divine magic has never been subtle and rarely has much to do with real faith.

The Gods in the default D&D setting are very obviously very real. Only insane nutjobs would question their existence or power. In that context worshiping a God really isn't about Faith