Cleric design goals . Legends and Lore April 23

[Remathilis]

Are points 4 and 5 in potential conflict? Point 4 states that the cleric is an armored warrior; but point 5 says basically that everything depends on the cleric's deity. An elven deity or god of thieves might emphasize agility, and not look kindly upon wearing plate mail. A god of magic might disallow Any armor and not like her clerics in direct combat.

I think point 4 needs to be reconsidered. Clerics seem to be headed in the direction of specialty priests from 2e. The clerical model needs to be able to handle anything from a dwarf cleric of a god of war in full plate to an elven cleric of the god of thieves in no armor. How to facilitate that is a good question

The default cleric is an armored warrior, but a PC may attempt to emulate his god and choose lighter armor or more specialized weapons. The Elf cleric of Apollo could, if he wanted, slap on chain and grab a mace, but that's not his thing.

I think a lot of people are reading "subtle" too obtusely. Divine magic is going to focus on buffs, healing, divination, and such, with a touch of offensive magic that is typically higher level than a wizard gets (compare flame strike to fireball) or only targets a small group of foes. There is plenty of room for hold person or lance of faith without clerics shooting out HOLY LAZERZ PEW PEW! every round.

 

[Steely_Dan]

The article has one example that rubs me the wrong way: since when did Apollo, a Human deity, support Elves as Clerics?

Depends on the campaign setting, for a Planescape campaign, easy; in fact, isn't there a theory that The Lady of Pain is a daughter of Poseidon?

 

[Zaukrie]

As long as customizable by god is doable, so a cleric of the god of shadows can ne very different than a cleric of the god of light, I am happy. I only play 4e, but the sameness of clerics annoys me to no end.

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[fuindordm]

I liked the article.

I don't think "Divine magic is subtle" and "Clerics reflect their gods" are incompatible statements. This is pretty much what 3E attempted with a basic spell list + 2 domains. I hope for something similar here--if you want to throw fire, take the Fire domain.

The basic spell list could be toned down compared to 3E, without hurting the class. There's some room to play with domains, too, but I vastly prefer the model of one cool spell per spell level to the sphere model of tossing everything appropriate into the basket and not caring about the distribution.

And for those who want more magic or more melee, you can make variants within the class:

Priest: light armor, simple weapons + god weapon, 3 domains.
Cleric: med. armor, simple weapons + god weapon, 2 domains.
Inquisitor: heavy armor, martial weapons + god weapon, 1 domain.

 

[RHGreen]

Just a note:

WIKI on Mace-

"It is popularly believed that maces were employed by the clergy in warfare to avoid shedding blood (sine effusione sanguinis).

The evidence for this is sparse and appears to derive almost entirely from the depiction of Bishop Odo of Bayeux wielding a club-like mace at the Battle of Hastings in the Bayeux Tapestry, the idea being that he did so to avoid either shedding blood or bearing the arms of war. The fact that his brother Duke William carries a similar item suggests that, in this context, the mace may have been simply a symbol of authority.

Certainly, other Bishops were depicted bearing the arms of a knight without comment, such as Archbishop Turpin who bears both a spear and a sword named "Almace" in The Song of Roland or Bishop Adhemar of Le Puy, who also appears to have fought as a knight during the First Crusade, an expedition that Odo joined and died during."


1. Clerics fighting in battle wearing armour is a historical fact, not just a D&Dism.

2. There is a president for clerics using maces even if the evidence is sparse and unconvincing.

FLUFF CARROT: For blunt weapons I'd make a feat called "Sine Effusione Sanguinis" - If a cleric does not shed blood - uses blunt weapons - the cleric gets extra healing.

*(Copy-Paste buggers formatting)

 

[Andor]

Are points 4 and 5 in potential conflict? Point 4 states that the cleric is an armored warrior; but point 5 says basically that everything depends on the cleric's deity. An elven deity or god of thieves might emphasize agility, and not look kindly upon wearing plate mail. A god of magic might disallow Any armor and not like her clerics in direct combat.

I think point 4 needs to be reconsidered. Clerics seem to be headed in the direction of specialty priests from 2e. The clerical model needs to be able to handle anything from a dwarf cleric of a god of war in full plate to an elven cleric of the god of thieves in no armor. How to facilitate that is a good question

This is only a problem if you view the cleric in isolation. In practice they have intimated that there will be another divine magic wielding base class that is the robes and flashy spells type, possibly called the priest. So most priests of Boccob will be ... priests. Or they might be Wizards with a 'devout' Theme. The point being that a cleric of Boccob is not a generic worshipper but someone devoted to the support and defense of the faithful, even if it's at the expense of the magical flashiness that normally gives Boccobs devotees happy pants.

-Not sure if that also leaves space for a Paladin of Boccob, but that's WotCs problem for now.

 

[grimslade]

Happy Cleric Dance

It looks like I can make a halfling cleric of Brandobaris for a healing rogue in Next. Happy Happy Joy Joy. I like the design parameters. I like that customization is done outside of the class box through presumably backgrounds and themes. Not much to complain about unless you wanted clerics to be CoDzilla reborn, which is still a possibility depending on how domains and spell lists are determined.

If all the classes can this level of diversification before multiclassing, we may have a winner here.

 

[kevtar]

hmm... what caught my eye was "cleric of Apollo". Sounds like we won't have the narrow-focused mish-mash pantheon of 4E. We might even see a Deities & Demigods with the greek gods in 5E, if we're lucky.

I'm a little dubious of the article though. While it sounds like they're expanding how the cleric can be customized through worshiping a god, it sounds like they're planning to force the cleric to be a defensive buffer with spells - notice no talk of the iconic Hold Person, Flame Strike and offensive spells the cleric's had possession of. My guess is that the offensive "spells" will be going to the paladin and the cleric's getting the defensive/buff spells.

Bu a cleric did burn a troll in an earlier update on a playtest, and it had a very "flamestrike" feel to it. So that's reassuring!

 

[Leatherhead]

I think a lot of people are reading "subtle" too obtusely. Divine magic is going to focus on buffs, healing, divination, and such, with a touch of offensive magic that is typically higher level than a wizard gets (compare flame strike to fireball) or only targets a small group of foes. There is plenty of room for hold person or lance of faith without clerics shooting out HOLY LAZERZ PEW PEW! every round.

It should the the opposite imo. Divine magic should produce shock and awe as appropriate of a miracle (to gain worshipers obviously.) Things like firing lighting bolts at people, horrible deforming curses, and graphic regeneration (wounds mending right before you eyes) should be staples of the divine. Where as arcane magic should be subtle and manipulative, as befitting it's themes of "hidden or lost knowledge" and "you made a secret pact with what?"

Seriously, at this point, I get the feeling the new edition is way to hung up on Fireball for it's own good.

 

[TerraDave]

I would agree that this implies:

-Armored mace wielder will be a default, apparently through themes
-Separate priest probably not needed
-Actual examples will be given on making "alt" clerics?

Also agree that it implies

-no flame strike

But would be surprised to see that, given the overarching goal of the project.

On the other hand, would not be surprised that you could get something like sacred flame (at will radiant attack) through a feat.