Cleric design goals . Legends and Lore April 23

[avin]

Point three is probably the only one I take issue with since gods in D&D are rarely subtle or indirect.

Indeed... well, maybe this is a hint that in DDN gods will be distant entities and "GODS VS PRIMORDIALS" stuff won't be anywhere... I would like that.

hmm... what caught my eye was "cleric of Apollo". Sounds like we won't have the narrow-focused mish-mash pantheon of 4E. We might even see a Deities & Demigods with the greek gods in 5E, if we're lucky.

Or support for homebrew DMs instead of fluff based on default canon.

 

[Ratskinner]

I'm wondering if this means they're giving up on the Priest as a separate class. If they're stressing versatility for the main Cleric class and they're giving examples of lightly armored Clerics, it takes a way a lot of the driving need for an independent Priest class, doesn't it?

Maybe "Priest" is a theme that you can tack onto any class now?

 

[I'm A Banana]

Yeah, this interfaces with backgrounds and themes pretty distinctly.

It seems, for instance, that weapon and armor proficiencies may be based more on themes and backgrounds than on class. Which is neat. It reflects actual play even if it doesn't reflect D&D history.

Which makes me quibble with especially #4. My concept of a cleric was as a protector, a defender, a healer, someone focused on the faithful, rather than on the enemies of the gods. Being a mid-tier warrior goes hand in hand with that, but they're not folks who go out and kill the enemies of the gods (that's paladins!), they're folks who protect the city from the enemies of the people.

But that's kind of a quibble. It looks pretty positive, and point #5 really makes me curious about the customization options involved in 5e.

 

[El Mahdi]

I pretty much liked everything I read in that blog. Seemed intuitive to me.

 

[Crazy Jerome]

Not saying I disliked the rest of it by any means, but the very best part to me was the off-hand bit about his example elf cleric getting a lot of his customization from stuff that all characters have access to, not domains or clerical specialties. Presumably, he was referring to themes and backgrounds here, but might have been more to it.

Either way, a big problem with domains and specialty priest mechanics was that it was hard to justify the page count devoted to them, for one character type--short of putting them into a separate book, as 2E finally did, which has its own problems. But customization things like that which can apply to a much wider range of characters have their worth exponentially magnified.

 

[paladinm]

Are points 4 and 5 in potential conflict? Point 4 states that the cleric is an armored warrior; but point 5 says basically that everything depends on the cleric's deity. An elven deity or god of thieves might emphasize agility, and not look kindly upon wearing plate mail. A god of magic might disallow Any armor and not like her clerics in direct combat.

I think point 4 needs to be reconsidered. Clerics seem to be headed in the direction of specialty priests from 2e. The clerical model needs to be able to handle anything from a dwarf cleric of a god of war in full plate to an elven cleric of the god of thieves in no armor. How to facilitate that is a good question

 

[I'm A Banana]

Either way, a big problem with domains and specialty priest mechanics was that it was hard to justify the page count devoted to them, for one character type--short of putting them into a separate book, as 2E finally did, which has its own problems. But customization things like that which can apply to a much wider range of characters have their worth exponentially magnified.

This plays into an idea I've been kicking around for a few weeks that "domains" and "spheres" might be better as themes than as cleric options.

So if someone worships the god of thieves, they may take the Thievery domain theme at character creation, and get divine powers from the god of thieves -- regardless of their actual character class. This opens up the possibility of things like worshipers of the god of thieves that are actual thieves, and not clerics (though clerics with the Thievery Domain theme would be possible, too).

If each god has its own "theme," it might be a strong way to show how themes tie you to the campaign world, and how they influence your character. A worshiper of Corellon, regardless of class, might have powers of arcane magic, beauty, and elfiness.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I can almost imagin that cleric of apollo now:

Race: elf
Class: cleric
Background: scout
Theme: Lurker

 

[KidSnide]

Are points 4 and 5 in potential conflict? Point 4 states that the cleric is an armored warrior; but point 5 says basically that everything depends on the cleric's deity. An elven deity or god of thieves might emphasize agility, and not look kindly upon wearing plate mail. A god of magic might disallow Any armor and not like her clerics in direct combat.

Point 4 is all about "The class should be recognizable to anyone who has played D&D." As the article notes, D&D is unusual in putting its primary divine caster in armor and handing him a mace. Point 4 recognizes that particular D&Dism and makes it a core part of the class. If you take a cleric in the most un-customized out-of-the-box form, your character will be able to wear armor and fight with a weapon.

Point 5 is about customization. The elf example suggests that you might be able to trade away some of the armor / weapon benefits of point 4, but the article doesn't go into any detail about how one would do that.

-KS

 

[Minigiant]

Are points 4 and 5 in potential conflict? Point 4 states that the cleric is an armored warrior; but point 5 says basically that everything depends on the cleric's deity. An elven deity or god of thieves might emphasize agility, and not look kindly upon wearing plate mail. A god of magic might disallow Any armor and not like her clerics in direct combat.

I think point 4 needs to be reconsidered. Clerics seem to be headed in the direction of specialty priests from 2e. The clerical model needs to be able to handle anything from a dwarf cleric of a god of war in full plate to an elven cleric of the god of thieves in no armor. How to facilitate that is a good question

Part of me think that the cleric gets proficiency with all armor. Then particular themes could make lighter armors more desirable for those trained with heavy armor.

So maybe the Lurker theme lowers armor check penalties. O a cleric (Scout+Lurker) of the god of Shadow has the same sneakiness as a rogue (Thief+Slayer).