D&D 5E Monte Cook Leaves WotC - No Longer working on D&D Next [updated]

Vyvyan Basterd

Adventurer
The only time I get irked is when people insist 1) i am wrong and I really like 4e because I don't understand it or my own preferences or 2) that I should buy or play the current edition anyways even if it doesn't appeal to me.

Insistence #1 is just rude, I agree.

But I think #2 might be a misinterpreted response sometimes to someone pulling for their edition of choice. Why would they want to convince others to play? I'll try my own analogy for everyone to pick apart. :)

It's like trying to get more people to watch your favorite TV show. Yeah, they've already told you they aren't intered, but you still try. Because otherwise your show gets cancelled. Sure, you'll always have the DVDs and can continue to enjoy your favorite episodes, but you'll never get new official episodes. You can hope another smaller network picks it up, but how often does that happen?
 

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Vyvyan Basterd

Adventurer
  • Because if a group of people hate anchovies, they will avoid your pizza place so their one anchovy loving friend CAN'T contaminate their pizza order. "Guys, if we call to Obed's Pizza, Frank is going to want to stink up the gametable with a triple anchovy, lets call Luigi's Pizza instead."

Or, being adults they just ask Frank to forego the anchovies because of their hatred. Frank, being their friend and not a dick, agrees that he won't get them. And if he insists on getting anchovies, next time no one invites Frank.

  • Because they stink up the oven and in a small pizza joint, that could cause a customer to walk out the door.
  • Because they stink up the oven and so the employee "forgets" to reorder more.
  • Because when you are lethally allergic to seafood, even a small chance a tiny piece will cross-contaminate your pizza isn't worth the risk of ordering from a place that has them.

Since figurative stank doesn't waft I think you'll be safe if an optional Anchovy Rule makes it into the game. And since I've never heard of lethal allergies to RPG rules, you're doubly safe. :)

JRRNeiklot said:
The problem is, if anchovies are core, we'll get them on our pizza anyway, and our only option is to pick them off ourselves.

Nemesis Destiny specifically denoted they be optional.
 

I don't consider contract negotiations and his rights as a contract employee to do side work a small issue, so I don't see how so many people are jumping to the conclusion that this was a dispute over the direction of 5E. He's got a Big Announcement coming soon. Maybe WotC doesn't like their employees splitting their time on side projects.

This makes no sense. I cannot imagine Monte would have signed 6 months ago to a contract that limited his outside work. I find the idea that he might have unfathomable. Now perhaps he was only working contract to contract and when the 6 months were up they wanted to change the deal. But that also is weird as they should have known when they hired him that if he were to leave it would cause an Internet storm.
 

Azgulor

Adventurer
If we're thinking of the same blog post, that being the one that presented the 3E Fighter as the finest representative of the class across all editions, that was the most horrifying thing anyone at WotC has said in regards to 5E.

Emphasis mine.

I'm not picking on casualoblivion's viewpoint -- but it's a good example.
If a 4e fan can view a designer saying the 3E fighter (one of the simplest classes to play in 3.x) was a good representation of the class if the "most horrifying" element of 5e info to date, you've got a huge and fundamental gulf between 3E & 4E players in terms of taste in RPGs.

Building squarely off a 3E or 4E framework isn't going to bridge that gulf -- it's going to reinforce it. I think that's why you've seen some much talk about 1e & 2e stuff. 5e is in a tough spot. If they build off of 3E or 4E, they leave out a group of customers that they want to retain/bring back. If they go for a transformational shift, as 4E did with 3E, they risk splintering the 4E fanbase the way 4E splintered the 3E fanbase. Now, you're dealing with a fraction of a fraction... Not going to hit my business plan targets that way.

Going back to a more "classical" framework of 1e/2e is the only "safe(er)" move I can see for them. Maybe they cherry-pick select elements from 3E & 4E to try and make everyone happy. But I see poor odds of that working.

They've got a tough road to traverse.
 

The Fighter class was one of 3E's weakest points, and one of the most constant indictments off the system. Not a day went by without an active thread trying to find some way to fix the broken Fighter. 3E might have done some good things, but the 3E Fighter class wasn't even in the same universe.
 

Vyvyan Basterd

Adventurer
This makes no sense. I cannot imagine Monte would have signed 6 months ago to a contract that limited his outside work. I find the idea that he might have unfathomable. Now perhaps he was only working contract to contract and when the 6 months were up they wanted to change the deal. But that also is weird as they should have known when they hired him that if he were to leave it would cause an Internet storm.

Maybe he didn't have the other opportunity 6 months ago and figured it was acceptable to work under the condition of exclusiveness. He could have wanted to change the deal. I don't know, you don't know, only Monte and WotC know. Yet many are ready to jump on Monte or WotC trying to blame either one or celebrate their loss. It is unfortunate he left the project, but it does not definatively point to any conclusions that people are making. I take Monte for his word that this was a difference of opinion between him and WotC and that the remaining team will produce a good game. And if they don't? Oh well, no skin off my nose.
 

jsaving

Adventurer
Going back to a more "classical" framework of 1e/2e is the only "safe(er)" move I can see for them. Maybe they cherry-pick select elements from 3E & 4E to try and make everyone happy. But I see poor odds of that working.
I can't imagine it would be even remotely "safe" to go back to 1e/2e. WotC is talking a good game at the moment about an edition everyone can feel a part of, but the market realities underlying their actions stem from one specific edition -- 3e/Pathfinder -- being so much bigger than all other fanbases combined that it is supplanting D&D as the default option around the gaming table. I grew up on Chainmail and very much enjoy 1e/2e/BECMI/Bluebox/Redbox, but let's not kid ourselves here and say that any of those fanbases are even 1/10 the size of 3e/Pathfinder.

WotC's main concern here is to recapture the single largest RPG fanbase at the moment, that being the 3e/Pathfinder crowd. Their next priority is to retain enough fundamental 4e features that the somewhat smaller but still numerically important 4e fanbase will feel sufficiently respected to stick with the new edition rather than abandoning D&D entirely. I'm sure they wouldn't mind reeling in some of the people still playing 1e, 2e, etc, but WotC would never risk driving away both 3e *and* 4e players to attract the numerically small groups of D&D players who don't like either one.

It's never easy to accept that one's favored edition isn't seen by a majority of the gaming community as being better than what came before. I see this around my 4e gaming table, whose members run the gamut of the "stages of grief" -- from disbelief ("4e must be selling better than they say!") to anger ("those 3e grognards sabotaged 4e!") to depression ("no edition could ever be as good as 4e"). So I can understand people not wanting to believe that The Rouse, the various market surveys published at ENWorld and elsewhere, and WotC's own actions indicate a sales problem so severe that D&D simply could not continue in its present 4e form. What I can't understand is the impulse to label WotC as the bad guy and Monte as the embodiment of everything that's wrong with WotC. If 4e were selling well, WotC's usual bureaucratic inertia coupled with their huge investment in 4e would guarantee it a substantially longer production run. The fact that this didn't happen doesn't make WotC "bad" -- it just means WotC is responding to a desperate situation as best it can.

I can understand why some 4e fans feel like the current environment isn't providing much in the way of validation, but it's important not to take these things personally. High-selling products aren't always "good," nor are low-selling products always "bad". The many sound innovations 4e contributed to D&D as a whole don't become unsound simply because the ruleset turned in a subpar performance in the marketplace. At the same time, though, we can't put ourselves in a situation where we feel compelled to insist 4e is selling well -- or at least would be if the dastardly WotC hadn't pulled the plug on it -- in order to self-validate our feelings about 4e. The best thing we can do is accept that 4e wasn't as popular as we'd hoped, recognize that this market judgment in no way invalidates our personal beliefs regarding 4e, and then do what we can to ensure its strongest features are represented in a new edition that will hopefully have something for everyone.
 

Stoat

Adventurer
Going back to a more "classical" framework of 1e/2e is the only "safe(er)" move I can see for them. Maybe they cherry-pick select elements from 3E & 4E to try and make everyone happy. But I see poor odds of that working.

The handful of hints I've seen about 5e's mechanics makes me think that core 5e will be different from any previous edition.
 

Nemesis Destiny

Adventurer
  • Because if a group of people hate anchovies, they will avoid your pizza place so their one anchovy loving friend CAN'T contaminate their pizza order. "Guys, if we call to Obed's Pizza, Frank is going to want to stink up the gametable with a triple anchovy, lets call Luigi's Pizza instead."
  • Because they stink up the oven and in a small pizza joint, that could cause a customer to walk out the door.
  • Because they stink up the oven and so the employee "forgets" to reorder more.
  • Because when you are lethally allergic to seafood, even a small chance a tiny piece will cross-contaminate your pizza isn't worth the risk of ordering from a place that has them.

The problem is, if anchovies are core, we'll get them on our pizza anyway, and our only option is to pick them off ourselves.

@ Vyvyan Basterd covered what I was going to point out, in both these cases. I tried to XP him, but I already had done so too recently.

Or, being adults they just ask Frank to forego the anchovies because of their hatred. Frank, being their friend and not a dick, agrees that he won't get them. And if he insists on getting anchovies, next time no one invites Frank.



Since figurative stank doesn't waft I think you'll be safe if an optional Anchovy Rule makes it into the game. And since I've never heard of lethal allergies to RPG rules, you're doubly safe. :)
Those people who take offense to figurative stank and have pretend allergies to certain rules
are probably beyond saving as customers. I would posit that 5e is not for them. That applies to both camps of hard core edition warriors, and may even include some of the less fanatical. It may even include me - there are just some concepts of D&D game design that I will not go back to. I'm hoping that said concepts end up being neither the crust nor cheese part of the RPG pizza.


Nemesis Destiny specifically denoted they be optional.
How astute of you to notice! Especially since it was the entire point of what I wrote. You can usually tell when someone has actually read your post and when they're just shooting from the hip. :)
 

Redbadge

Explorer
I can't imagine it would be even remotely "safe" to go back to 1e/2e. WotC is talking a good game at the moment about an edition everyone can feel a part of, but the market realities underlying their actions stem from one specific edition -- 3e/Pathfinder -- being so much bigger than all other fanbases combined that it is supplanting D&D as the default option around the gaming table. I grew up on Chainmail and very much enjoy 1e/2e/BECMI/Bluebox/Redbox, but let's not kid ourselves here and say that any of those fanbases are even 1/10 the size of 3e/Pathfinder.

WotC's main concern here is to recapture the single largest RPG fanbase at the moment, that being the 3e/Pathfinder crowd. Their next priority is to retain enough fundamental 4e features that the somewhat smaller but still numerically important 4e fanbase will feel sufficiently respected to stick with the new edition rather than abandoning D&D entirely. I'm sure they wouldn't mind reeling in some of the people still playing 1e, 2e, etc, but WotC would never risk driving away both 3e *and* 4e players to attract the numerically small groups of D&D players who don't like either one.

It's never easy to accept that one's favored edition isn't seen by a majority of the gaming community as being better than what came before. I see this around my 4e gaming table, whose members run the gamut of the "stages of grief" -- from disbelief ("4e must be selling better than they say!") to anger ("those 3e grognards sabotaged 4e!") to depression ("no edition could ever be as good as 4e"). So I can understand people not wanting to believe that The Rouse, the various market surveys published at ENWorld and elsewhere, and WotC's own actions indicate a sales problem so severe that D&D simply could not continue in its present 4e form. What I can't understand is the impulse to label WotC as the bad guy and Monte as the embodiment of everything that's wrong with WotC. If 4e were selling well, WotC's usual bureaucratic inertia coupled with their huge investment in 4e would guarantee it a substantially longer production run. The fact that this didn't happen doesn't make WotC "bad" -- it just means WotC is responding to a desperate situation as best it can.

I can understand why some 4e fans feel like the current environment isn't providing much in the way of validation, but it's important not to take these things personally. High-selling products aren't always "good," nor are low-selling products always "bad". The many sound innovations 4e contributed to D&D as a whole don't become unsound simply because the ruleset turned in a subpar performance in the marketplace. At the same time, though, we can't put ourselves in a situation where we feel compelled to insist 4e is selling well -- or at least would be if the dastardly WotC hadn't pulled the plug on it -- in order to self-validate our feelings about 4e. The best thing we can do is accept that 4e wasn't as popular as we'd hoped, recognize that this market judgment in no way invalidates our personal beliefs regarding 4e, and then do what we can to ensure its strongest features are represented in a new edition that will hopefully have something for everyone.

4th edition represents at least half the D&D playerbase. It is at least as large as all the other playerbases combined.
 

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