Write this game for adults

n00bdragon

First Post
D&D books are not something you read to challenge yourself. If you do read them to challenge yourself I pity you. I pity you dearly. A well written manual isn't something you read for the enjoyment of the thing, it's to learn how to do something.

I don't curl up at night with a good VCR instruction booklet.
 

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Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
D&D books are not something you read to challenge yourself. If you do read them to challenge yourself I pity you. I pity you dearly. A well written manual isn't something you read for the enjoyment of the thing, it's to learn how to do something.

I don't curl up at night with a good VCR instruction booklet.

Drop the insulting tone right now, please.

And I did curl up at night and read my AD&D books, and have fond memories of doing so. I still pluck 1E and 2E books from the shelf and just read for 10 minutes here and there; I find this pleasurable. I can't do that with the 4E books, because they're written as reference books.

You may well consider that badwrongfun. But for me, it was an intrinsic part of the D&D experience; a part of The experience that I miss.

I understand your point that you need to be able to look something up quickly and easily. To that end, I hope that a detailed and comprehensive index will be found at the end of each book.
 
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Leatherhead

Possibly a Idiot.
"Partly clothed females FTW" is teenager material, not adult material.

Adult material would be if the PHB had a chapter on how to balance your household budget, raising your tween daughter who is being leered at by the half-elves at school and having self-esteem issues from being called round-ears, and dragon-slaying without losing a healthy work/life balance.

Oh come on now, why does adult = parent?

I've seen plenty of adults going around without kids and plenty of teens running around with them to know that isn't the case anymore.

And that's nothing to say of quality of some peoples child rearing skills.
 

Oni

First Post
I hate it when people pull out their "I'm sooooo smart" egos and start talking about things like "this was written at a certain grade level" to justify how special and smart and genius they are.

The truth is, it's easy to write convoluted stuff that is at "a higher grade level," and it's harder to write effectively in a way that communicates simply and directly. Writing to an 8th grade level instead of a 10th grade level is a valuable skill, not a sign that someone is talking down to you.

(I also suspect that most people couldn't recognize "12th grade writing" or "8th grade writing" or "6th grade writing" if they saw it.)

In the end I don't think it's so much about reading level or complexity. I mean there are people that get off on a barrier to entry due a difficult reading level because it makes them somehow feel elite, but those folk are a passing small minority I think. What it really comes down to is, understandability/clarity, ease of use as a reference, and is it interesting enough to hold my interest as a read. Now there are some trade offs involved in those categories, and preferences may vary a little from person to person, but ultimately it takes a good author to write with complexity and retain clarity, and it takes a good author to write with simplicity and retain a sense of depth and interest/engagement with the reader.

I couldn't tell you what grade level something reads at, other than this is harder or that is easier, but I like to think I can tell what is good writing and what is not. And complexity or simplicity aren't, either one, inherently bad or good, they're just tools in a tool box. Authorial voice and the relationship established with the reader are all that really matter, and these are independent of the writing level, though extreme levels of simplicity or complexity can effect the reader's perception of what the author thinks of himself, or his or her audience (often in a negative way).
 

Incenjucar

Legend
Oh come on now, why does adult = parent?

I've seen plenty of adults going around without kids and plenty of teens running around with them to know that isn't the case anymore.

And that's nothing to say of quality of some peoples child rearing skills.

You mistake my example for a definition.

Adult topics are difficult topics that can have significant consequences, not jubblies.
 

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
In the end I don't think it's so much about reading level or complexity. I mean there are people that get off on a barrier to entry due a difficult reading level because it makes them somehow feel elite, but those folk are a passing small minority I think. What it really comes down to is, understandability/clarity, ease of use as a reference, and is it interesting enough to hold my interest as a read. Now there are some trade offs involved in those categories, and preferences may vary a little from person to person, but ultimately it takes a good author to write with complexity and retain clarity, and it takes a good author to write with simplicity and retain a sense of depth and interest/engagement with the reader.

I couldn't tell you what grade level something reads at, other than this is harder or that is easier, but I like to think I can tell what is good writing and what is not. And complexity or simplicity aren't, either one, inherently bad or good, they're just tools in a tool box. Authorial voice and the relationship established with the reader are all that really matter, and these are independent of the writing level, though extreme levels of simplicity or complexity can effect the reader's perception of what the author thinks of himself, or his or her audience (often in a negative way).

Good post. For me, it's important that the books be a pleasure to read as well as a useful reference tool.

While I can respect those who require only clarity and ease of reference, that's simply not enough to engage me. I can't engage with a dictionary or a cookbook; but I want to be able to engage with my D&D books.

And I know perfectly well this is possible. Because it's been done before. At the age of 11 I was perfectly able to understand how to play the game, and also enjoyed reading those rulebooks. And so did thousands of kids my age across the world. We loved those books; not once did we curse and cry out for a large font and smaller words. Not once did we bemoan the lack of bullet points or the excess of prose. Those books can't be that difficult to use if I managed it.

I'm not saying that game writing hasn't improved since those days; of course it has. But I still feel some of that readability can be maintained while catering towards functionality. I guess Pathfinder isn't too far off the mark there; a little dry for my tastes, but more readable than the 4E books.
 
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Wiseblood

Adventurer
If WotC were to write D&D like they write their smarter articles I would be able to read the book much more easily. Teach me something while I'm at it. I am not talking about mechanics but instead mythologies and cultures and history. It need not be pervasive but a sprinkling here and there. Just enough that I might want to delve deeper into these real world things for myself. The monsters , pantheons, and even direct comparison to characters from history and fiction were present in D&D and AD&D. This, I felt was missing in 3e and 4e and also Pathfinder but only because pathfinder is enamored with its own setting's canon.

I could tell my wife what was going on in a fair amount of the movie Thor because of Deities & Demigods I have not read the comics (Excepting Deadpool when he had a copy of Mjolnir). I learned a fair amount of the Norse mythologies because of D&D and directly from D&D.
 

Shadeydm

First Post
I hope my son won't have to be embarrassed by any of the illustrations in his DnD books. I hated the sense of embarrassment that had me hiding the succubus illustration from the ADnD MM whenever my mom was around. The game doesn't need it or maybe i'm too old and crusty of appreciate it lol.
 

R

RHGreen

Guest
Orko, the brownies in Willow, 7-zark-7, Jar Jar Binks. I didn't/wouldn't like these things when I was young. (Lucas almost added R2D2 to the list, but as those films don't actually exist outside of a poorly remembered nightmare, he's still fine.)

I don't think it's age that is the problem. It's a problem with the writers thinking young people are too stupid to like anything more intelligent than bright flashing colours, loud noises and cutesy, loud, stupid furries. For example, if your space flight sim shooter isn't very good make everything brightly coloured and instead of a human main character, make him an anthropomorphized fox/dragon. "Wow, it's amazing and so cute." No it's not.

Maybe I'm wrong and they aren't very bright. Perhaps I'm one of the lucky ones that had a boring mother that didn't do recreational drugs when I was in the womb.
 

Kzach

Banned
Banned
I think it's easy enough to separate rules descriptions, which should be clear and concise with no-nonsense writing, and everything else that fills a D&D book, which should be interesting, engaging, evocative, imaginative, creative and possibly more 'ings and 'tives than I can think of right now.
 

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