Write this game for adults

[Crazy Jerome]

The core 3E texts were dry and somewhat boring to read through (much like a technical manual) but served well enough as references.

The 4E texts made me feel like I was taking a remedial reading class. The target reading level felt about right for 3rd-4th grade. I think that had more to do with turning me off that edition than the mechanics.

I think if you ran the tests, you'll find that the 3E books are often written at around an 8th grade level (like a newspaper). Most of their confusion is the way they kept repeating stuff that did not need repeating, in an effort to teach it. They are written like history textbooks--and like such books, are all over the place. No one can sustain writing well in that environment for a whole book, but you'll get spots that are decent.

4E is written at about a 6th grade level, as almost pure technical manual. Part of this is the simplification aimed for in 3E has been intensified, but it is also that once they took out the redundant stuff, there were spots where there simply wasn't a lot to say. I can go back and pick some key 3E passages, rewrite them to remove such redundancies, and they will be about the same as 4E text. (I did this a couple of times back around 2002.)

When all Spot did was run around in the yard, how exactly are we supposed to enhance that much beyond "See Spot Run," without adding to it?

A lot of 3E stuff is written to a formula--again, like a newspaper. Read the race listings, for example, with a gimlet, editorial eye. 4E also writes to a formula, but a simpler one.

However, it's the advice that really contributes to the patronizing tone, in most of the WotC products.

 

[Ranganathan]

Couldn't disagree more. Write the rules for teens, by that I simply mean write to the 8th grade reading level used for the evening news and newspapers. The easier it is to read, he easier it is to understand, and the more people who can potentially play the game.

And make the art mature, as in beyond the need to use sexist artwork that's simply put there as a lurid draw for kids and adults who haven't grown out of their childhood. Give us evocative art, yes, but we don't need & ass to sell D&D.

 

[Lanefan]

Older children and younger teens have always been part of the audience of D&D. It would be a serious break with tradition to leave them out o the equation.

Since and including 2e, yes. Before that, while the books etc. said "ages 10 and up" or "ages 12 and up" the actual content always seemed to be written for high-school and up; and high school and college is when people got into the game.

2e started the downward spiral - I remember when the core 3 for that one came out, they were almost painful to read after years of 1e. But a specific intent with 2e was to (wrongly, I think) aim for a younger audience, and for some reason that carried on in 3e. 4e I'll cut some slack to, as by then Hasbro is running the show and as they're all about toys and games for young kids it only makes corporate sense to aim low with D&D as well. Still doesn't make it right.

Count another vote for mature writing.

Lan-"'dweomer': the very word just screams D&D"-efan

 

[Crazy Jerome]

Couldn't disagree more. Write the rules for teens, by that I simply mean write to the 8th grade reading level used for the evening news and newspapers. The easier it is to read, he easier it is to understand, and the more people who can potentially play the game.

An average of around 10th to 12th grade level for most text passages would be better, reserving the 8th grade level for straight (and brief) technical writing. In a few key places, something like 6th grade would be ok (e.g. writing a quick reference of basic combat rules).

Any moderately intelligent 11 year old that reads a bit and likes fantasy is going to be a bit challenged by that, but will aspire to master the information. That audience will widen as it ages. An 11 year old that doesn't read much is not going to read a D&D book, no matter how much you dumb it down.

 

[Ranganathan]

That audience will widen as it ages.

Right. Just like the hobby's been doing for the last few decades? The only recent influxes have been the children of gamers and a few of their friends.

 

[ExploderWizard]

Right. Just like the hobby's been doing for the last few decades? The only recent influxes have been the children of gamers and a few of their friends.

So the answer is to dumb down the books until even the existing players grow sick of them?

Writing to the level of the lolspeak crowd will drive away the more intelligent players.

 

[Ranganathan]

So the answer is to dumb down the books until even the existing players grow sick of them?

Writing to the level of the lolspeak crowd will drive away the more intelligent players.

Excluded middle. The options aren't make it rarefied or make it for lolspeakers. You can have a complex game that's written in simple language. Compare a passage from AD&D to 4E, in the former you'd likely need a good dictionary to understand the passage, in the latter you wouldn't. It can be, and has been, said that 4E is dumbed down in language, but there are more rules, and more complex rules, in 4E than AD&D.

 

[am181d]

D&D should not be written for old people who've been playing D&D forever.

 

[ExploderWizard]

Excluded middle. The options aren't make it rarefied or make it for lolspeakers. You can have a complex game that's written in simple language. Compare a passage from AD&D to 4E, in the former you'd likely need a good dictionary to understand the passage, in the latter you wouldn't. It can be, and has been, said that 4E is dumbed down in language, but there are more rules, and more complex rules, in 4E than AD&D.

I don't disagree with this one bit.

When I was reading AD&D at the age of 13 and looking up cool unknown words as I stumbled across them I enjoyed it. Not to say that a game manual has to require a thesaurus and dictionary to fully comprehend, but somewhere between that and the Berenstain Bears at least would be preferable.

 

[Gold Roger]

I agree. 4th was very jarring in this regard "play race x if..." is justly infamous and there's more where that came from. I mean really, extensive color coding and english writing I haven't seen since 6th grade textbooks (and I'm not a native speaker).

Right, might be a teensy bit hyperbole (on the internet? Never!)

And I'm no old guy who has played D&D forever. I'm in my twenties and have played Tabletop RPG's for no ten years with some non-gaming years among those as well.

And just for the record, cheesecake and beefcake have their traditional place in D&D. They just need to make sense. No pornstars and supermodels in stripperific "armor" representing tough warriors please. But those Grazzt serving witches propably run around in ridiculous outfits.