D&D 5E The Next Generation

Why can't we have 2 or 3 versions of the game? The core rules don't have to be different, but the default values can be. That's not too much to ask, is it? Then presentation and common setting and ability design can all be geared for different age groups.

Kids
Young Adult
Adult

Or, if you must,
Ankle biters
Teen sparkle
Dementia

GnomeWorks said:

Hey, old people.



So now I'm going to tell you that you need to go step back, and - in essence - go away.

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And by the way, Get off My Lawn!!

GnomeWorks said:

Hey, old people.

That is an entirely understandable sentiment. After all, you want a game that can do Conan, and Elric, and Frodo, right? Those are the kinds of stories you grew up on. The kinds of things that drew you to gaming in the first place.


So now I'm going to tell you that you need to go step back, and - in essence - go away.

Your stories aren't relevant anymore.

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Yes, they watch Last Air Bender, Bleach, and other anime. And, while Dying Earth may not be relevant, guess what? Several of the teens (18-19) I have worked over the last couple year have read Conan, Lord of the Rings, Elric, Dune, Steven King's Gunslinger and with it the Eye of the Dragon. They post references, quotes and photos of the books on their Facebook page. I , first, learned this when one of them posted the "Litany against Fear" from Dune. I questioned it to see if they new the source and both he and several friends posted the answer. In a few instances, younger siblings 15-16 also new the answer.
So don't be so quick to judge what is and what is not relevant.

(And, of those books, I, personally, have only read LOTR, the first three Dune books, and Eye of the Dragon despite starting with AD&D. I will soon be reading the Elric books for the first time having just found a second volume of Elric books that I thought I had lost in a move last year).

Morrus said:

Plus we in our 30s and 40s have more money than teenagers do.

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Is this true for most people? I earn way more income now but after my mortgage and family kick in, I have less disposable income than in my 20s!

@GnomeWorks

Thankfully, not every young person is as close-minded as you, uninterested in anything old simply because it is old.

I would say the age of 18 is the latest I would expect an intelligent person to have gotten over the idea that art progresses in a technological fashion, like cell phones and computer hardware.

It's especially sad that the frequency at which Vance is mentioned in 5e discussions has, rather than piqued your curiousity, fortified your resolve to never read him, because I suspect that you would find his stories "The Last Castle", "The Moon Moth" and "The Dragon Masters" to be surprisingly fresh, particularly if you're a fan of sci-fantasy anime. Of course your unfamiliarity with his work is not any sort of indictment on his present visibility if you don't read ANYTHING, which somehow I suspect is true.

But the worst thing about your post is just how wrong it is about what mainstream fantasy is like today. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you're not being disingenuous, but no, you do not in any way speak for the entire current generation of fantasy fans. I honestly don't think that your preferences are even very representative.

Anime does not have mainstream popularity. Where does this idea even come from? There are no mainstream anime feature films. Cowboy Bebop is not bigger than Conan. Conan had another major film adaptation last year, and there was the John Carter of Mars film this year (an even older pulp fantasy character). Lord of the Rings obviously is still enormously popular, with The Hobbit coming out soon. HBO's Game of Thrones series is huge. What are the recent successful fantasy videogames? Skyrim, Dragon Age. Both very similar to classic D&D in feel. Todd Howard from Bethesda Softworks and the Doctors from BioWare have both spoken about their love of D&D and the influence its had on their games on many occasions.

D&D clearly could hit any reasonable sales goal while being very traditional in its fantasy inspirations. The pool of people who are into this is big enough. In fact it's far bigger than D&D could ever hope to tap. D&D does not need to reach out to other groups (note that I'm not necessarily saying it shouldn't, what I am saying right now is that the idea that it needs to is like swimming in a lake and wishing it were an ocean).

Your personal (superficial, since you haven't actually looked into it) distaste for D&D's fantasy roots does not have any more bearing on what 5e should do than anyone else's preferences.

Raith5 said:

Is this true for most people? I earn way more income now but after my mortgage and family kick in, I have less disposable income than in my 20s!

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I was talking about young teenagers. If they have disposable income compared to an employed 35 year old, then paper routes pay a heck of a lot more than they used to - and I'm quitting this malarkey and getting myself one!

..Speaking as an 'old guy', you simply cannot truly appreciate something until you understand how it evolved. The material you so casually dismiss is so rich in imagination and creativity, that I cannot understand how fans of the game would not want to at least take a look at it.
..I'm not saying the game should be closed to new influences, I'm saying that you should not be closed to the older ones.

Fifth Element said:

To be fair, no one can force you to stop playing any game. Even if the newest edition of the game was made specifically to piss you off, you could still play your preferred edition instead. You're rather missing the point - we're talking about the newest edition of the game, not the ones that came before. It seems to me the OP is talking about his "own game" as you say, in suggesting the new game should be directed at him rather than you.

One could easily respond to your question "Why should each new edition of that game continue to cater to you? You already have your D&D, now let me have mine." That's basically what the OP is saying, as I read it. You've had your game and your support for 30 years now, what more do you need?

And I also think you're underestimating the spending power of the "younger generation". If they can afford all these video games they're supposed to be playing, they can surely afford D&D books.

I can't believe we're talking about a younger generation. I've been playing since 1E, but I'm only 36. I'm not old enough to be discussing this!!

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I don't believe that it should just cater to me but it is really bad business to just piss on your reliable customers in the hope of attracting new ones.

There is always a middle ground where you try and cater as much as possible to everyone.

I give an example of the danger of ignoring older customers and catering to just young ones. Up until about 2000 drug store make up brands basically catered to the 20 somethings. There logic was older woman don't buy as much make up and since they have money they tend to gravitate to the higher end department store brands.

This model stopped working, woman were writing companies saying I love your brand but it no longer works for my skin type or my age. Revlon was one of the first to experiment with make up for older woman. They used several actresses of different ages to promote it. And it sold like hot cakes. They started making their foundations in formulas for all skin types and also made more older woman friendly shades of eye shadow with less glitter. While still making things for younger woman.

Today most make up brands do the same thing. An interesting side was that the older more stodgy high end make up found that young woman did want quality make too and started lines for them as well.

DnD needs to do the same thing and I believe it can.

As for kids having more disposable income that is not as true as it used to be. As the economy has tanked parents have less money to spend on their kids and kids who want nice clothes and gadgets have to work for them and they compete for jobs that adults have had to take.

Also while teens may be willing to drop 39 on a video game many will bulk at that price for a book that you can pirate for free and use on your IPAD.

4E does some of the older sources of inspiration better than earlier versions. So no, 4E was not aimed solely at doing new stuff. In any case, this is question of preference of gaming style, not the literary influence.

I'm not convinced that newer fantasy has changed in ways that would require all that many changes in a game. Maybe the trend over the last 20 years or so of darker, grittier fantasy been more popular has left D&D a little behind, but it isn't as if there was not dark fantasy earlier. There were objections to Vancian magic almost from day 1--for the simple reason that some of that stuff in Appendix N was written decades before D&D, and its magic did not bear any resemblance to D&D magic.

It appears to me that in this thread there has been several attempts to claim the aegis of tradition or modernity under false pretenses.

GnomeWorks said:

That is an entirely understandable sentiment. After all, you want a game that can do Conan, and Elric, and Frodo, right? Those are the kinds of stories you grew up on. The kinds of things that drew you to gaming in the first place.

So now I'm going to tell you that you need to go step back, and - in essence - go away.

Your stories aren't relevant anymore.

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Um, dude, how did Frodo manage to make $2.5 billion dollars a few years ago if he's so irrelevant?

Are there some old stories that haven't aged well? Of course. But, quite frankly, Shakespeare is still relevant, so age isn't an indicator. A good story, a great story, is relevant pretty much forever.